Multimedia Toolkit 2/Multimedia Toolkit 2.iso/imagine/text/arc39

Text File | 1993-09-28 | 186.7 KB | 4,739 lines

IMAGINE archive: collected off of [e-mail]

ARCHIVE XXXIX
Jun. 10 '93 - Jun. 18 '93

If you have questions or problems with this file, email Marvin Landis
at [e-mail]

note: each message seperated by a '##'

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Subject: IDE drive for DPS PAR (was Re: IDE vs. SCSI)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 93 17:35:40 EDT
From: watters <[e-mail]>

>     What does IDE stand for?

I was told once that it stood for Integrated Digital Expansion, I
was also told it was for Intelligent Disk (Drive) Expansion.
We are a bit biased to SCSI around here so when I have asked in the past I
always got I Don't care Either...IDE.

>Can both exist on the same system?

Yes.

>  I ask because I
>     already have a SCSI controller in my 2500/30.  I am interested in
>     the DPS harddrive animation system and realize it needs an IDE
>     interface.

It has it's own IDE interface onboard.  The DPS PAR with work in a system
that has a SCSI controller.

I hate to make a plug, but if people are planning on getting a drive for
the DPS Personal Animation Recorder... I strongly suggest you get in touch
with the company I work for as we are a distributor for many high-end drive
vendors including HP and the better Seagate stuff and I believe the
Seagate 3600A is  the only drive that has been qualified so far.
I will own a DPS PAR myself so you will have some experienced technical
support if you get the drive here.

Believe me... I don't care if you get the drive here or not... the money
doesn't go into my pocket... although I would enjoy getting to talk to a lot
of Amiga people that need help instead of a day full of Unix dweebs. :)

While we are at it... if you need any large hard disks, MagnetoOptical drives,
or tape (4mm DDS/DAT, 8mm, etc.) give Cranel a call because you will get
some decent pricing from a distributor and I will get to talk to a lot more
of you!  We also sell multi-Terabyte optical systems if you are rendering
a lot! :)

Cranel's number is [phone] or [phone]
You can find info and adds from Cranel in most Unix and Imaging Rags such
as SunWorld and Imaging Magazine.

Hope this wasn't too bad... I just hate that we don't sell to many Amiga
users... some Universities here and there that we are already under contract
with but that is it.

             _      __
David    ~  |_|_---'  |@,__
Watters   ~   ( )-_______-()`-

--
David R. Watters ([e-mail])    Cranel Inc. Development & Engineering

          Congratulations Emerson Fittipaldi, Chevrolet, and Penske!!!
                    -=+ 1993 Indianapolis 500 Winners +=-


##

Subject: Re: grass
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 93 18:22:45 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    you want your grass to blow in the wind, you need one object for every frame,
    which rapidly eats up disk space as well.
        If you try to implement this anyway, note that you can't do this via
    groups of Imagine objects (Imagine 2.0 locked up for me when I tried to group
    more than about 200 objects).  Instead, you need to create a single object
    using something like Glenn Lewis' T3DLIB (it's shareware - please register)
    that represents a large number of grass blades.  Be careful that you don't
-----------------------------------
If you are a good (or at least mediocre) C programmer and have a
copy of POV or Rayshade, you can probably do the impossible using
another rendering program. Rayshade lets you make instances of
objects so you could possibly create many objects... Another thing,
rayshade can do bump and tranparent mapping (not the greatest in the world)
but you probabnly could kludge it some way so you could have
rayshade INCLUDE a different image map each time a frame is rendered.
Using just the "system()" command and the FILE handling commands
you could write these steps (could be flowcharted):

1. Load in a animation frame from a 20 frame grass animation,
2. Create a Grey scale and Color RLE image from the frame,
3. Write the necessary "texture" call into a file that will be included
    in the original scene file (just after the object[s] to be bumped
    and made transparent around the edges of the grass)..
4. Tell rayshade to render the scene.
5. Cjpeg the image and store it away in a directory or archive it away.
6. Delete the original image created by rayshade.
7. Go to next frame in grass animation until there is no more frames
    in the grass animation.
8. Else restart grass animation frame number count until the number of
    repeats is done.

As I might have said, this is pretty darn easy to code and beats
playing around with programs like Imagine... it is more screwy,
but hey what good is a computer science degree if you can't use it??

Good news.. we are going to get a SGI server (150 Mips) and 4 SGI
Indigos, late next week, or so. I will need to figure out a way
to have all five systems working on one animation... Maybe I can
now do 4000 frame animations at 640x480 ;-), probably not.
The server will have 2 processors... this should make for some
good tests... It is feasible to write code for Rayshade that
conforms all objects in a universe to any mappable function...
It is easy, but screwy also, just make copies of every
object then remap all the points so that they align with a
function for both the x and y axis then just shoot the function
(if periodic) out of phase for each frame about a 10th of
a radian or something like that... anyone know how to make wavy gravy
(not the 60-70's hippy clown)... like the floppy sombrerro.


##

Subject: Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 93 23:32:44 CEST
From: Santi Lo Monaco <[e-mail]>

Well last Dave's message made me think maybe I can try again to post to
this list without being Kicked-off bouncing in the cyber-space.
BAD NEWS FOR IMAGINE-PC USERS!!!!!!!!
When my copy arrived, I couldn't wait to get down with the thing and get
some real GREAT stuff done......NO WAY.
I mean, have read ALL the "manual" (that is always been the best reason to
avoid pirated stuff), and while diligently following suggested examples I
would regularly find myself at the dos C:> with a weird message about XXXXX
Bytes being still allocated, the only time i got to the point to Ray-Trace
ONE (1) imagine that was mercylesly ""crappy" i suppose not a tremendous
amount of thinking went in developing antialiasing algorithm, (TIP: you
single IMPULSE programmer check this book: Photoralism and Raytracing in C,
by Stephen Coy  (VIVID author) S&M Books.

The worst thing is that when I called Impulse they told me It was the
first time somebody complained about bugs in the PC version (IT is not
BUGS, IT IS UNUSABLE!!!!). But ho ho guys this is the Net they cannot hold
the truth, I have personally checked with 3 other users (whose addres i got
from the list) the have got the same problems I have and fell "mixed
feelings about Imagine PC and Impulse"

This is for their records: IT IS NOT BAD HARDWARE IN 1 (single ) PC . IT
IS
REAL WORK-STOPPING BUGS IN THE SOFTWARE PERIOD.
so long and thanks for the hospitality.
Santi Lo Monaco
[e-mail]


##

Subject: IDE vs. SCSI
Date: 11 Jun 93 03:24:01 EDT
From: Jonathan Hirschman <[e-mail]>

I belive that IDE stands for Intelligent Drive Electronics.


           //Jonathan,
       \\//via AutoPilot


##

Subject: Re: Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 08:14:22 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael B. Comet)

    I too have that annoying bug where for no reason what so ever
it just quits and say XXXX bytes still allocated.  I just kept saving
my work, reloading and starting over.  I don't think I'll use the PC
version that much though.  I haven't called impulse yet about it as
I've been too busy.  Oh well.



--
+======================================================================+
|  Michael B. Comet -   Software Engineer / Graphics Artist  - CWRU    |
|  [e-mail]  - "Silence those who oppose the freedom of speech" |
+======================================================================+


##

Subject: Grass replies
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 10:31:20 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Shayne White -- BA/ITAS - Boston )

        I'd like to thank everyone for their replies concerning
the pasture that I am trying to create.  So far I have used
the Essence bump texture and a roughness setting of about 130 to
achieve the effect.  I think it looks pretty good, but I will
continue to play around, possibly placing clumps of weeds, and
other things (cow patties perhaps :) around the field.
        The pasture is a grazing pasture, so the grass must be
short.  The project is something I'm doing for my parents, who
own a dairy farm.  I want to have a cow or two grazing in a field
with the farm's logo.  When I get it done I'll post my results
and any techniques that I used or was informed of by others.  I
couldn't believe the number of replies I got from my first
question.  Thanks again for the help!

Shayne


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+  SHAYNE WHITE - STANDARD DISCLAIMER ....                   +
+  AMIGA 2000, RCS FUSION FORTY, 7 MEGS RAM, 213MB MAXTOR    +
+  [e-mail]                                        +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


##

Subject: Grass replies and COWS-Objects
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 19:44:32 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Heberle H.)

Hello Shayne,
I have a cow for you. It's from Viewpoints free distributable objects.
Are you interested, aren't you?
Greetings to all of you in the USA. I will be back in september. The
next time to discover your country.
You should visit Germany. It' an interesting area.
Horst Heberle
[e-mail]


##

Subject: brushes
Date:    Fri, 11 Jun 1993 15:18:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail]

Hello fellow Imagineers,
    I ran into an interesting problem last night involving brushmaps.
I was rendering an example pic to show the difference between altitude maps
and color maps. I had four spheres, one with no map, one with color, one with
altitude, and one that used both.

All spheres used the same iff file for the brush. Now for some reason when I
went to render, I would get an error message saying "Can't access brush.."
with my brush path. I fiddled around with different combinations of the
spheres and what seems to be happening is Imagine chokes if there are more
than 4 references to the same brushmap. I copied the brush to a second name
and referenced it twice and the first twice, and it rendered perfectly.

Now is this just a glitch in my setup, or is there some imagine limitation I
don't know about?

Also, on the "What does IDE mean?" thread, it's Integrated Drive Electronics,
at least according to the newest InfoWorld...

Zach Williams ([e-mail])
Precision Imagery


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 13:31:44 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Kurt Schultz)

Wait a minute. I've had/used Imagine PC for about a month. No problems at all.
Anti-aliasing is adjustable from the preferences screen, try changing it.
While you can certainly complain about Imagine's design, I have found that
the port to the PC to be rather good in regards to the platform migration.
I've had no memory errors at all, everything works OK so far. Of course it
helps if you already use/know Imagine on the Amiga. There certainly could
be some improvements nad some bugs squashed, but it runs, its usable, and
it makes images and animations. I know because I've made'em.

kurt


##

Subject: Fred Fish Disks
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1993 15:10:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: [e-mail] (Carroll Moore)

I'm sorry for using this list for an answer to this question,
but can someone give me the address of a good ftp site for
current as well as older fred fish PD disks?  I started using
oes.orst.edu but there fred fish disks are incomplete (the
contents file does not match the archives available in the
directory).  Any help would be appreciated!

Carroll


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 17:35:06 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Elmer Beachley)

Santi:

I too purchased PC Imagine and it does not work on my system, even with
all drivers (except mouse) and memory managers disabled.

It does work on a friends PC, but I've tried everything the tech support
guy (a very nice fellow btw) and it still doesn't work on MY system.
I've set it aside for the moment.  Maybe they'll fix it but I got the
impression they don't have a way to test on a wide range of hardware.
Sigh,

Elmer Beachley [e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: brushes
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 22:41 GMT0BST-1
From: Jacek Artymiak <[e-mail]>

In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>

>All spheres used the same iff file for the brush. Now for some reason when I
>went to render, I would get an error message saying "Can't access brush.."
>...
>Now is this just a glitch in my setup, or is there some imagine limitation I
>don't know about?

I don't think its Imagine at all. Rather DOS getting confused when it receives
requests for access the file while previous request has not yet been cleaned up
after.

You can't blame Imagine for everything ;-)

.------------------------------------------------------.
| Jacek Artymiak, email: [e-mail] |
 ------------------------------------------------------

Jacek


##

Subject: Re: IDE vs. SCSI
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 17:52:35 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    I belive that IDE stands for Intelligent Drive Electronics.


               //Jonathan,
           \\//via AutoPilot
-------------------
Intelligent Drive Electronics <= 200 Meg hard drives
Incredibly Dumb Electronics > 200 Meg hard drives


##

Subject: Re: Fred Fish Disks
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 18:15:01 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    I'm sorry for using this list for an answer to this question,
    but can someone give me the address of a good ftp site for
    current as well as older fred fish PD disks?  I started using
    oes.orst.edu but there fred fish disks are incomplete (the
    contents file does not match the archives available in the
    directory).  Any help would be appreciated!
-------------
Have you tried doing a string search on "Archie" for fred fish disks.
The place I frequent for fred fish disks has a "ux1" in the
first part of the address... Anyways... some people get mad at
me if I tell them how to use Archie... if you are one who
who hates extra info, just ignore the rest.

Archie is a Anonymous FTP Site Database (or Archive).
By telneting to a Archie server you can do name searches
on most all the FTP sites known to man. Since there is
help provided internally to every Archie site and the FTP-List (common
list) tells you how to get on to Archie, I will only give
an example of how you would go about finding all the fred fish
disks in the FTP world..
type the following in this order (don't try to figure out what you
are doing... follow this exactly):

telnet archie.unl.edu
archie
set search exact
set sortby time
prog fish
mail "your Email address here"
bye

where "your Email address here" is your email address, the only
thing that is not typed exactly...
What this will do is search for every file/directory on every FTP site
in the database that has the name "fish", then it mails the list
back to "your Email address" and ends the session with "bye" ("quit"
might work, if bye doesn't).

Later


##

Subject: Re: Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 17:49:45 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    I mean, have read ALL the "manual" (that is always been the best reason to
    avoid pirated stuff), and while diligently following suggested examples I
    would regularly find myself at the dos C:> with a weird message about XXXXX
    Bytes being still allocated, the only time i got to the point to Ray-Trace
------------------------
Well at least the Imagine manual is not as bad as the wordperfect manuals.
Impulse has never been good on manuals... They really really and trully need
a staff of technical writers. It really seems like Impulse is a
small company because the quality of software and documentation you
get from them looks like a one-man operation. You can find better
stuff coming out of shareware. I really think Impulse could do a lot
better, they just need to organize themselves better. They need
better programmers, that is for sure... Any Bachelor Degree level
graphics programmer could create better rendering algorithms
and any applications programmer could create an easier to use
interface, but I don't know why Impulse hasn't hired any
of these programmers...
-----------------------
    ONE (1) imagine that was mercylesly ""crappy" i suppose not a tremendous
    amount of thinking went in developing antialiasing algorithm, (TIP: you
    single IMPULSE programmer check this book: Photoralism and Raytracing in C,
    by Stephen Coy  (VIVID author) S&M Books.
-----------------------
Yes, I have the programs that come withthe book... It is pretty interesting.
I don't even use Imagine's rendering module because you can find "better"
rendering software in shareware and public domain. My advice to Impulse
is "make an export/rendering option to use external rendering modules
like Renderman, Rayshade, POV and Radiance. Adding an Arexx interface
would be even cooler... " I bet, if they add just a minimal amount of
support for external rendering software and Arexx, anyone would be able
to write software to render animations on a multi-workstation network
using multiple copies of a public domain rendering program.
I think it is a little screqy that they haven't.. Even the MAc program
VISION 3D supports Radiance, Renderman and Rayshade formats and
its in public domain. The only thing that is keeping Vision 3D from
being commercial quality software is a better interface and animation
support... I recommend it to anyone, but it is a several times slower
than Imagine ona the same processor. I am writing programs to work
around what I cannot port to an external rendering program.
-------------------------
    The worst thing is that when I called Impulse they told me It was the
    first time somebody complained about bugs in the PC version (IT is not
    BUGS, IT IS UNUSABLE!!!!). But ho ho guys this is the Net they cannot hold
    the truth, I have personally checked with 3 other users (whose addres i got
    from the list) the have got the same problems I have and fell "mixed
    feelings about Imagine PC and Impulse"
-------------------------
True, it hasn't been a success... I think that companies that develop
for the Amiga need to stop depending on the "comfee chair" that
Amiga users give them when they make mistakes, because it causes
developers to (at least the more dishonest and crooked ones)
ignore potential errors. I really believe that about 50% of the Amiga software
that exists, is overpriced for the ammount of obvious effort that
is put into it. I'm constantly seeing them... For instance,
the "Sign Language" teaching program that just recently came out...
All it teaches is 26 letters represented in sign language.. Stupid...
You can learn that without the program... they should have an entire
dictionary of sign language complete with animations on a CD-ROM
or 20 disks... All the cost, zero effort.. How about Directory OPUS...
Everyone likes this one, but what is keeping anyone from creating something
just like it?? (I never have used it, but all it looks like to me is a
fancy alternative to symbolic shell, which are in public domain).
-------------------------
    This is for their records: IT IS NOT BAD HARDWARE IN 1 (single ) PC . IT
    IS
    REAL WORK-STOPPING BUGS IN THE SOFTWARE PERIOD.
    so long and thanks for the hospitality.
    Santi Lo Monaco
    [e-mail]
-------------------------
WHat BIOS does you and your friends use??? I wrote a assembly
program for a professor last semester in 8086 assembly... The
program worked on all the PC's in our computer lab but
crashed on his machine. I believe his machine has some finer
details in the operating system that caused it to crash.
There are 256 interrupts in a PC, each interrupt has any number
of (or 0) subroutines... If one should change, that could
screw up some programs that use that subroutine. The handling
on interrupts and the location of the routines in memory
varies from PC to PC. I would suggest trying it on many different
machine of different BIOS, operating system revisions
and possibly system hardware. If it still fails... Then I
would contact Impulse.

If they think you are wrong, give them the proof...
They will not get off their butts unless you force them to...


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 18:17:27 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    I too purchased PC Imagine and it does not work on my system, even with
    all drivers (except mouse) and memory managers disabled.

    It does work on a friends PC, but I've tried everything the tech support
    guy (a very nice fellow btw) and it still doesn't work on MY system.
    I've set it aside for the moment.  Maybe they'll fix it but I got the
    impression they don't have a way to test on a wide range of hardware.
    Sigh,

    Elmer Beachley [e-mail]
-----------------------------
What is the difference between you and your friends PC??
BIOS?
MSDOS?
IBMDOS?
What revision?
CPU?
Memory?
Any TSR's running?
Using doskey?


##

Subject: Re: Fred Fish
Date: 11 Jun 93 21:44:00 EST
From: "Andrew Church" <[e-mail]>

  Here are two FTP places I've found with Fred Fish libraries:

ux3.cso.uiuc.edu  (128.174.5.61) -- Fred Fish, AmiNet, other
nic.funet.fi     (128.214.6.100) -- Fred Fish, LOTS of music, other

  Hope this helps.

  --Andy Church


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 23:39:21 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Elmer Beachley)

almost everything is different unfortunately.

      works          my system
----------------  -----------------
 20mhz 386          40mhz 386
 ??? bios           ami bios
 dos 4.?            dos 5.0
 4meg memory        16meg memory
 several tsrs       only the mouse driver
 no doskey          no doskey

i might add that i've had no problems with software compatibilty before
this with my system.  it has ide, stealth vga, wd8003 network, adaptec 1522
scsi, old targa-16 and soundblaster-16.

the only peripherals imagine mentioned as having problems were the
bernoulli disks.

elmer beachley


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 93 10:18:10 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

          works          my system
    ----------------  -----------------
     20mhz 386          40mhz 386
     ??? bios           ami bios
     dos 4.?            dos 5.0
     4meg memory        16meg memory
     several tsrs       only the mouse driver
     no doskey          no doskey

    i might add that i've had no problems with software compatibilty before
    this with my system.  it has ide, stealth vga, wd8003 network, adaptec 1522
    scsi, old targa-16 and soundblaster-16.

    the only peripherals imagine mentioned as having problems were the
    bernoulli disks.

    elmer beachley
-------------
That is a tough one.. I would have to have a copy of it myself to
diagnose it... You could probably DEBUG the binaries and do a trace to
see where it goes or probably find out where the message is being called
and find the subroutine...  Chances are the code was compiled
entirely in C and tracing would be near impossible... But it is worth a
try..

It might have problems with the networking software if it is
NFS. We have NFS and there is some stuff that just does not like
NFS for some reason...  I'm not too knowledgeable about networks...
Besides you shouldn't have to diagnose these problems.. Impulse needs
to work them out...

Well see you later

Good Luck,

Kiernan Holland
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Moon IFFs
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 93 00:29:52 PST
From: Tony Jones <[e-mail]>

Does anyone have or know of any colour/altitude brushes that will render as
a reasonably realistic moon?

--

  _/_/_/ _/_/_/  email: [e-mail] | "Every day for us something
   _/     _/   FidoNet: 2:253/404.35       |  new, open mind for a different
  _/   ___/   AmigaNet: 39:138/1.35        |  view" - Metallica


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 93 20:12:39 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Elmer Beachley)

Kiernan:

I've tried booting without any drivers except the mouse, so while I do
use FTP and NFS normally, there is no software active when I try imagine.

After I start imagine it reads the disk but I never get the startup picture
on the VGA.  I think I tried changing the name of the startup picture
to see if I got an error message, and as I remember, I did not.

So I'm pretty much stumped.  I don't have the time right now for low level
debugging.  Thanks for your ideas.

Elmer


##

Subject: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 08:49 PDT
From: Byrt Martinez <[e-mail]>

Systems'n'Software, Fremont, CA  94539-6669
Comments: Validated 11-11-92
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 08:39:45 PDT
Organization: Systems'n'Software, Fremont, CA  94539-6669

Howdy fellow Imagineers!

I'm hoping someone has a "fix" or method for achieving what I want.
I'm trying to build an object and it is comprised of several grouped
objects. In one area I would like to blend two objects together, as if
one was "pulled" from the other. The two objects are intersecting and
separate. When I simply put them together there is a definite sharp
boundary where they intersect. I would like them to be phong shaded
together. Make soft has no effect, probably because they are separate
objects. Anybody have any ideas?

Also, I 've built a cylindrical type of form object which phong shades
very nicely. But when I use a slice on part of it, the area where I
sliced does not keep the phong shading, at least not consistently. It
is especially noticable when viewed from an acute angle. The faceting
from the polygons becomes very pronounced. Again, Make soft has no
effect. Any clues on why this is happening?

Byrt Martinez

----
[e-mail]  (Byrt Martinez)
Systems'n'Software Free Public Access BBS --- [phone]


##

Subject: Re: Progressive Peripherals #
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 03:10:17 +1000 (EST)
From: Nikola Vukovljak <[e-mail]>

On Thu, 10 Jun 1993, Dale R Rogers wrote:

>
>
>     Does anyone out there have a phone number for Progressive
>     Peripherals that will give me a live human being?  I recently
>     purchased Baud Banditt and the disk I received was bad.  I sent it
>     back to them a couple of weeks ago and don't know the status.  I
>     have left about 4 messages in a 2 week period, and they haven't
>     returned my call.
>
>
>
>     Thanks in advanced,
>
>     Dale
>
>
>
>
>
Tell me about it! It is a lot worse when calling from Australia.
Apparentely their Tech support used to be good....

BTW, does anyoone know if they're shipping those Zeus boards at any higher
than the snail's pace?

Nik.

[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: Moon IFFs
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 22:54:58 +1000 (EST)
From: Nikola Vukovljak <[e-mail]>

On Sun, 13 Jun 1993, Tony Jones wrote:

> Does anyone have or know of any colour/altitude brushes that will render as
> a reasonably realistic moon?
>
> --
>
You may want to try getting onto pubinfo.jpl.nasa.gov - they have some
nice GIF's available for FTP

Nik.

[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: 13 Jun 1993   16:44:15 GMT
From: RenderStud! <[e-mail]>

>
> objects. In one area I would like to blend two objects together, as if
> one was "pulled" from the other. The two objects are intersecting and
> separate.
>
    Okay....the only way Imagine lets you phong shade is by having each
part be the same object!  I would reccomend saving the objects seperately
for safety.  Then make 2 objects 1 when they're together and 1 when
they're apart by positioning them and then JOIN'ing them.  Save these
2 new objects, and morph them.  That should do it.

>
> It is especially noticable when viewed from an acute angle. The faceting
> from the polygons becomes very pronounced. Again, Make soft has no
> effect. Any clues on why this is happening?
>
    I am not sure if this is due to your slice, but Phong shading has
kind of a limitiation.  If you have 2 (or more) polygons and view them
from an angle, you'll get nice smooth shading.  But if you view them
front on, you'll get a Sillouhette view which shows the polygons along with
the shading.  Basically, phong shading will interpolate the color and
make smooth shades along the surface of the polygons, but will not do
anything for the edges.  If you want smoother edges, you MUST use more
polygons.  The closer you get to your object, or the larger it becomes
means you typically need more polygons.

                Mike C.



--
+======================================================================+
|  Michael B. Comet -   Software Engineer / Graphics Artist  - CWRU    |
|  [e-mail]  - "Silence those who oppose the freedom of speech" |
+======================================================================+


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 00:49:53 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    Kiernan:

    So I'm pretty much stumped.  I don't have the time right now for low level
    debugging.  Thanks for your ideas.

    Elmer
-------------------------
Sure.. No problem... I am just a computer aide and sometimes when
someone has a problem, I always think there must be some way to fix it, so
my AIDEing kicks in .....

Its like the joke... "What is a Computer Aide??"
                  "An Unemployed Computer Professional"


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 01:05:42 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    >
    > It is especially noticable when viewed from an acute angle. The faceting
    > from the polygons becomes very pronounced. Again, Make soft has no
    > effect. Any clues on why this is happening?
    >
        I am not sure if this is due to your slice, but Phong shading has
    kind of a limitiation.  If you have 2 (or more) polygons and view them
    from an angle, you'll get nice smooth shading.  But if you view them
    front on, you'll get a Sillouhette view which shows the polygons along with
    the shading.  Basically, phong shading will interpolate the color and
    make smooth shades along the surface of the polygons, but will not do
    anything for the edges.  If you want smoother edges, you MUST use more
    polygons.  The closer you get to your object, or the larger it becomes
    means you typically need more polygons.

-------
Sometimes I wish Imagine had some way of using Splines to create
objects... I mean, make the objects smooth in the first place
then let you create approximations accoding to how much memory you
have left... That way, the program could have the capability to create
more polygons within the area that is visible to the observer and
all other parts that are invisible or reflected off the objects
could be given a minimum number of polgons per patch...
I wonder if anyone has ever thought about that...

Kiernan


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 11:28:31 -0400
From: Mark Marino <[e-mail]>

I cast my vote with Santi.  Imagine PC has been very buggy for me.

Depending on your particular use of memory managers and device drivers,
Imagine can be extremely prone to drop you to DOS (or worse yet, hang
your machine) at seemingly random intervals (I've had it happen when
ALL I was doing was moving the mouse!!!).  Forget trying to use third
party memory managers such as QEMM.  My experience is that this will
cause endless headaches.  Also forget trying to use a combination of
expanded and extended memory.  Imagine will barf every time.  To be
fair, the Imagine PC release notes mention these problems, but they don't
really give you an adequate solution.  My solution has been to use a
pretty vanilla DOS configuration (only use HIMEM, don't use EMM386).
This prevents me from loading SMARTDRV, but I can live with that.

It would be nice if Impulse fixed these problems so I could run Imagine with
QEMM.  Maybe Imagine PC 3.0...

Besides the hanging problem, I have one other major complaint about
Imagine PC 2.0.  Most of the keyboard shortcuts just don't work.  This
is a real pain in the butt and slows down productivity.  The main
keyboard shortcuts for transformations and screen re-center work fine,
but if you want to do anything else (attributes, redraw, etc.) you have
to use the pull down menus.  Why this is so, I have no idea.  I get the
feeling that the development team at Impulse (from what I've heard,
it's a team of one) has released a beta-quality product for the PC.  Thier
adamant stance that the PC product is bug-free makes it all the more annoying.

Just my opinion,
Mark

P.S.  I didn't mention the features that just plain don't work in Imagine
PC, such as font imports, etc.  (I don't want to appear overly
critical).  Imagine is a powerful program with tons of potential and a
great price.  I just hope Impulse addresses some of these issues and
stops treating all the PC complaints as if they were isolated problems.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                                                             |
| Mark Marino              | [e-mail]           |  uunet!osf!omar         |
| Open Software Foundation | 11 Cambridge Center    |  Cambridge, MA 02142    |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 8:40:22 PDT
From: Byrt Martinez <[e-mail]>

>
>
> >
> > objects. In one area I would like to blend two objects together, as if
> > one was "pulled" from the other. The two objects are intersecting and
> > separate.
> >
>     Okay....the only way Imagine lets you phong shade is by having each
> part be the same object!  I would reccomend saving the objects seperately
> for safety.  Then make 2 objects 1 when they're together and 1 when
> they're apart by positioning them and then JOIN'ing them.  Save these
> 2 new objects, and morph them.  That should do it.
>

Okay, I've already tried JOINing the objects together and no go. The lighting
on the objects is way off, or at least the way the light is being reflected off
of the objects. The smaller object closest to the camera reflects light
differently than the larger object that it's supposed to be a part of. On the
smaller object, it is dark at the far end even though the larger object is
still well lit. It's really ugly! I've also tried turning off phong shading and
the smaller object looks like it is now part of the larger object. Unfortunately,
I lose the smoothness that I need! A royal Catch-22!

About the morphing part you mentioned... isn't that only for animations? Right
now I'm only in the process of creating the object, not an animation. If I can
use morphing, please explain in a little more detail how it could be done.

> > It is especially noticable when viewed from an acute angle. The faceting
> > from the polygons becomes very pronounced. Again, Make soft has no
> > effect. Any clues on why this is happening?
> >
>     I am not sure if this is due to your slice, but Phong shading has
> kind of a limitiation.  If you have 2 (or more) polygons and view them
> from an angle, you'll get nice smooth shading.  But if you view them
> front on, you'll get a Sillouhette view which shows the polygons along with
> the shading.  Basically, phong shading will interpolate the color and
> make smooth shades along the surface of the polygons, but will not do
> anything for the edges.  If you want smoother edges, you MUST use more
> polygons.  The closer you get to your object, or the larger it becomes
> means you typically need more polygons.

I think I wasn't too clear as to what Iwas trying to explain. I'm aware of the
edge-on faceting of an object and don't have a problem with it. The problem
comes when an otherwise acceptably shaded object loses its smoothness in the
area where the slice occurred. Maybe if I uuencoded a picture of what I'm
talking about, it would be clearer.


Thanks for the help!

Byrt Martinez


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 10:34:24 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Setzer)

>
> almost everything is different unfortunately.
>
>       works          my system
> ----------------  -----------------
>  20mhz 386          40mhz 386
>  ??? bios           ami bios
>  dos 4.?            dos 5.0
>  4meg memory        16meg memory
>  several tsrs       only the mouse driver
>  no doskey          no doskey
>
> i might add that i've had no problems with software compatibilty before
> this with my system.  it has ide, stealth vga, wd8003 network, adaptec 1522
> scsi, old targa-16 and soundblaster-16.

There, much better.  If you have problems it always helps to give as much info
as possible.  If I recall, there were some problems with the latest version of
Dos(well, not with Dos, but with Imagine working under that version).  I saw
something about it on this list.

Do any PC Imagineers remember this?  Get it fixed?  I think it was an early
release of Imagine PC.  I thought I read that someone had gotten it fixed(via
a secret Impulse upgrade).

Good luck,


Tom Setzer
[e-mail]

"And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery
intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" - Calvin


##

Subject: Re: Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 10:54:22 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Setzer)

> From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)
> better programmers, that is for sure... Any Bachelor Degree level
> graphics programmer could create better rendering algorithms
> and any applications programmer could create an easier to use
> interface, but I don't know why Impulse hasn't hired any
> of these programmers...
> -----------------------
Well, get busy... We will anxiously await your improvements ;)
> -------------------------
>     The worst thing is that when I called Impulse they told me It was the
>     first time somebody complained about bugs in the PC version (IT is not
>     BUGS, IT IS UNUSABLE!!!!).
GRRRRR....Welcome to the wonderful world of Impulse tech support

> True, it hasn't been a success... I think that companies that develop
> for the Amiga need to stop depending on the "comfee chair" that
> Amiga users give them when they make mistakes, because it causes
> developers to (at least the more dishonest and crooked ones)
> ignore potential errors. I really believe that about 50% of the Amiga software
> that exists, is overpriced for the ammount of obvious effort that
> is put into it.
GRRR...Bite my tongue, suppress flames....and pray those guys in their "comfee
chair" don't leave the Amiga behind....

> -------------------------
> WHat BIOS does you and your friends use??? I wrote a assembly
> program for a professor last semester in 8086 assembly... The
> program worked on all the PC's in our computer lab but
> crashed on his machine. I believe his machine has some finer
> details in the operating system that caused it to crash.
> There are 256 interrupts in a PC, each interrupt has any number
> of (or 0) subroutines... If one should change, that could
> screw up some programs that use that subroutine. The handling
> on interrupts and the location of the routines in memory
> varies from PC to PC. I would suggest trying it on many different
> machine of different BIOS, operating system revisions
> and possibly system hardware. If it still fails... Then I
> would contact Impulse.

Tee hee, tee hee....

>That is a tough one.. I would have to have a copy of it myself to
>diagnose it... You could probably DEBUG the binaries and do a trace to
>see where it goes or probably find out where the message is being called
>and find the subroutine...  Chances are the code was compiled
>entirely in C and tracing would be near impossible... But it is worth a
>try..

<Insert favorite outburst of laughter here>
Oh, stop, my sides are killing me.

Sorry, had a rough morning...;)  I'm better now.


Tom Setzer
[e-mail]

"And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery
intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" - Calvin


##

Subject: Re: Fred Fish
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 15:35:57 -0400
From: Mark Marino <[e-mail]>

>   Here are two FTP places I've found with Fred Fish libraries:
>
> ux3.cso.uiuc.edu  (128.174.5.61) -- Fred Fish, AmiNet, other
> nic.funet.fi     (128.214.6.100) -- Fred Fish, LOTS of music, other
>

Excuse my (and I assume others) ignorance, but what exactly are the
Fred Fish libraries?  For any interested parties, they can be found on
ux3.cso.uiuc.edu in directory /amiga/fish.  Now if I only knew what
they were...


Mark


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 12:03:46 CDT
From: Wayne Haufler <[e-mail]>

>> > objects. In one area I would like to blend two objects together, as if
>> > one was "pulled" from the other. The two objects are intersecting and
>> > separate.
>> >
>>     Okay....the only way Imagine lets you phong shade is by having each
>> part be the same object!  I would reccomend saving the objects seperately
>> for safety.  Then make 2 objects 1 when they're together and 1 when
>> they're apart by positioning them and then JOIN'ing them.  Save these
>> 2 new objects, and morph them.  That should do it.
>>
>
> Okay, I've already tried JOINing the objects together and no go.

It seems to me that phong shading would only work to smooth edges
of adjoining faces; that is, every "real" edge line should be smoothed,
but any "artificial" edge lines formed by intersecting objects
would not be smoothed, even if the intersection was between
two parts of the same object, or two JOINed objects.  It probably
is not enough that they (faces) be part of the same object.

For smoothing of "artificial" edge lines to work, some collision or
intersection detection algorithm would have to be used, first,
for the renderer to know about the intersection line, before it can be
smoothed.  Does anybody know of a (affordable) renderer that will do this?

Of course, this is only my understanding and reasoning of your problem.

One suggestion might be to do the smoothing of your intersection lines
with a paint program, or an image processing program that can process
a defined region rather than the whole image.  This might could be
setup to semi-automatically process a whole animation, if the intersection
line doesn't move too much.

This would be a nice affect for pulling something out of a liquid,
since liquids generally adhere some to surfaces (except mercury, perhaps),
and thus look a little blended with the object.

         __
\\ /\\ /\\ //_    Wayne A. Haufler   [Christian/SW Engineer/XWindows/Amigan]
 \/--\// \//__    [e-mail]         McDonnell Douglas-Houston
     //           Hobby:  "Computer Animations For Christian Endeavors"
          GodlyGraphics mailing list: [e-mail]


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 12:25:00 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    Dos(well, not with Dos, but with Imagine working under that version).  I saw
    something about it on this list.

    Do any PC Imagineers remember this?  Get it fixed?  I think it was an early
    release of Imagine PC.  I thought I read that someone had gotten it fixed(via
    a secret Impulse upgrade).

    Good luck,
----------------------
The only problem that I know about Dos 6.0 is that MS decided to
bundle stacker into the software as part of the system... there has been
a lot of problems resulting from use of the stacker option..
Otherwise, I don't know..


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 12:22:06 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    comes when an otherwise acceptably shaded object loses its smoothness in the
    area where the slice occurred. Maybe if I uuencoded a picture of what I'm
    talking about, it would be clearer.
---------------------------
Does it look like portions are darker than they should be??? Any wierd
shading??? This could be the problem that my brother disgnosed in
Imagine about 1.5 years ago when I first showed it to him.. Imagine 1.1
has a problem with its phong shading. I think it might have passed
on to later versions as well..

Can you FTP??


##

Subject: Fred Fish
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 15:54:32 -0500
From: [e-mail] (William E. Costello)

   Excuse my (and I assume others) ignorance, but what exactly are the
   Fred Fish libraries?  For any interested parties, they can be found on


Lots and lots of interesting pd/shareware software.

William Costello
[e-mail]


##

Subject:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 15:52:19 -0500
From: [e-mail] (William E. Costello)

   The only problem that I know about Dos 6.0 is that MS decided to
   bundle stacker into the software as part of the system... there has been
   a lot of problems resulting from use of the stacker option..
   Otherwise, I don't know..


---------------------------

I think the problem with this is that it is not stacker, but
a stacker look-a-like.

William Costello
[e-mail]


##

Subject: stuff
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 10:57:06 -0400
From: "Mr. Scott Krehbiel" <[e-mail]>

I've been using Wavefront recently, and there are features there that
I absolutely LOVE!!  I wonder how difficult it would be to implement
these features in a product like imagine (dream on..)

Anyway, one thing that Wavefront has that I wish Imagine had is
the texture vertex.  Each polygon has a normal at each vertex,
showing which way the polygon faces (simple enough) but you
can smooth an object, making the normals approach each other
from connected polygons.  In effect, this bends your polygons
so that they connect smoothly (at least as far as the shader is
concerned - it doesn't affect your geometry)  I'm probably getting
the Wave technology all screwed up, but you get the picture...
nice feature.


About the grass field, it seems that a program like Renderman would
be able to tackle this quite easily.  In Renderman, you can import
a model and write a C script telling Renderman how to deform,
texture, replicate, shade, etc. etc. you object.
You could load in a blade of grass, and have Renderman deform it along
the x axis over a set period, then replicate it, then stretch it
vertically, then place it.  If you tell it to do this repeatedly,
you should be able to create a whole field of tall, short, fat, and
thin grass that all blows in the wind together.  I believe that
Renderman can do these types of things without using up all kinds of
memory on models - instead, you write the object replication into
the shading algorythm somehow.  If you're interested in doing
organic things like trees and fields, you might want to give
Renderman a try.

BTW: I've been told that Renderman was used (perhaps with some imported
     models) for the Listerine comercial with the bottle swinging
     through the forest (to the tune of Jungle Boy by Baltimora)

Just hoping to stir a few minds about the wide variety of approaches
out there.  Imagine is way cool, but there are other methods of
rendering that you might want to check out.

Scott


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 08:04:44 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael B. Comet)

>
>Sometimes I wish Imagine had some way of using Splines to create
>objects... I mean, make the objects smooth in the first place
>then let you create approximations accoding to how much memory you
>have left... That way, the program could have the capability to create
>more polygons within the area that is visible to the observer and
>all other parts that are invisible or reflected off the objects
>could be given a minimum number of polgons per patch...
>I wonder if anyone has ever thought about that...
>
>Kiernan
>
>
>

    Yes.  This is actually typical of modelers that are first
polygonal based, and then they add splines.  It's easier to let the
user model with spline patches, but to then break them down in to
polygons for rendering in the polygon renderer than to make a spline
renderer.  Ususally the user has control over how much detail different
parts have, so curved parts can be smoother.  I have never heard of
a renderer that changes the amount based on the camera/object angle/pos
though it's an interesting idea.

    I believe Toaster 3.0 now supports this as I stated above.
Perhaps Imagine will too...?



--
+======================================================================+
|  Michael B. Comet -   Software Engineer / Graphics Artist  - CWRU    |
|  [e-mail]  - "Silence those who oppose the freedom of speech" |
+======================================================================+


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 11:54:32 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael B. Comet)

>
>Okay, I've already tried JOINing the objects together and no go. The lighting
>on the objects is way off, or at least the way the light is being reflected off
>of the objects. The smaller object closest to the camera reflects light
>differently than the larger object that it's supposed to be a part of. On the
>smaller object, it is dark at the far end even though the larger object is
>still well lit. It's really ugly! I've also tried turning off phong shading and
>the smaller object looks like it is now part of the larger object. Unfortunately,
>I lose the smoothness that I need! A royal Catch-22!
>
>About the morphing part you mentioned... isn't that only for animations? Right
>now I'm only in the process of creating the object, not an animation. If I can
>use morphing, please explain in a little more detail how it could be done.
>

    Oh... I thought you were trying to do an anim of them pulling
apart.  If not, JOIN them and then try MERGE i think to remove redundant
points.  Other than that, you may have to adjust your lighting.
You may have to go through point by point to get the objects to trully
attatch and phong shade properly.

>
>I think I wasn't too clear as to what Iwas trying to explain. I'm aware of the
>edge-on faceting of an object and don't have a problem with it. The problem
>comes when an otherwise acceptably shaded object loses its smoothness in the
>area where the slice occurred. Maybe if I uuencoded a picture of what I'm
>talking about, it would be clearer.
>
>

    Hmm.. you could ftp it wuarchive.  Maybe you need to do that
MERGE on it.  I think whenever you do slices and joins you need to
remerge the points to make the phong shading comes back since sometimes
you will get duplicate points from the operation...



--
+======================================================================+
|  Michael B. Comet -   Software Engineer / Graphics Artist  - CWRU    |
|  [e-mail]  - "Silence those who oppose the freedom of speech" |
+======================================================================+


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 15:07:34 CDT
From: Wayne Haufler <[e-mail]>

>> > objects. In one area I would like to blend two objects together, as if
>> > one was "pulled" from the other. The two objects are intersecting and
>> > separate.
>> >
...
I just wrote:
> This would be a nice effect for pulling something out of a liquid,
> since liquids generally adhere some to surfaces (except mercury, perhaps),
> and thus look a little blended with the object.

Come to think of it, this effect or feature could solve a whole class of
problems, namely modeling segmented objects, like the snake mentioned before,
and jointed objects, like the Cycleman or Humanoid object that is
available commercially.  If the line where two joints or segments intersect
could be smoothed, it would look much more naturally like "skin".
Of course, some user control over the extent of smoothing would be nice.

Perhaps this is partly what is meant by the "bones" feature of Imagine 3.0.
Any guesses or speculations?  Any renderers out there with this
feature?  Real 3D?  Lightwave?  Aladdin?

Of course, spline-based modeling might be another approach to getting
this effect.

         __
\\ /\\ /\\ //_    Wayne A. Haufler   [Christian/SW Engineer/XWindows/Amigan]
 \/--\// \//__    [e-mail]         McDonnell Douglas-Houston
     //           Hobby:  "Computer Animations For Christian Endeavors"
          GodlyGraphics mailing list: [e-mail]



##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 08:57:12 EDT
From: David [e-mail], GraphX head <[e-mail]>

> From [e-mail] Tue Jun 15 01:53:19 1993
> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 15:07:34 CDT
> From: Wayne Haufler <[e-mail]>

> >> > objects. In one area I would like to blend two objects together, as if
> >> > one was "pulled" from the other. The two objects are intersecting and
> >> > separate.
> >> >
> ...
> I just wrote:
> > This would be a nice effect for pulling something out of a liquid,
> > since liquids generally adhere some to surfaces (except mercury, perhaps),
> > and thus look a little blended with the object.
>
> Come to think of it, this effect or feature could solve a whole class of
> problems, namely modeling segmented objects, like the snake mentioned before,
> and jointed objects, like the Cycleman or Humanoid object that is
> available commercially.  If the line where two joints or segments intersect
> could be smoothed, it would look much more naturally like "skin".

There is a lot of work being done with implicit surfaces, a.k.a. metaballs.
Metaballs can be thought of as CSG spheres, or maybe balls of gas, which have
a density that increases as you get closer to the center.  The renderer has
a specified density and as soon as you go above it, i.e. close enough to the
center, the pixel gets colored the color of the object.
>From this you can see that two metaballs which are close to each other can
jointly affect the density between them, usually in an additive way.  This
will make two metaballs blend into each other similar to water or mercury,
with out the surface tension bringing them together of course.

Keep a watchfull eye on this stuff as it is showing a lot of promise, esp. the
super metaballs which are setup in a hierarchy that specifies which metaballs
can affect each other.

> Of course, some user control over the extent of smoothing would be nice.

Modeling with metaballs is the tough part right now.  One could make an
impact be designing and writing a metaball modeler that was easy to use.

> Perhaps this is partly what is meant by the "bones" feature of Imagine 3.0.
> Any guesses or speculations?  Any renderers out there with this
> feature?  Real 3D?  Lightwave?  Aladdin?

I wish.

             _     ___
David    ~  |_|,--'   |@,__
Watters   ~   ( )-_______-()`-

--
David R. Watters ([e-mail])    Cranel Inc. Development & Engineering
"Porsche.  The very name is, to many, the last word in sports cars. Any car
 blessed with these magic seven letters is sure to be the very best. Period!"
                        - Car and Driver, January 1993


##

Subject: Re: stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 08:58:05 EDT
From: David [e-mail], GraphX head <[e-mail]>

> From [e-mail] Mon Jun 14 19:17:28 1993
> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 10:57:06 -0400
> From: "Mr. Scott Krehbiel" <[e-mail]>

> I've been using Wavefront recently, and there are features there that
> I absolutely LOVE!!  I wonder how difficult it would be to implement
> these features in a product like imagine (dream on..)

I wouldn't want it's price.

> Anyway, one thing that Wavefront has that I wish Imagine had is
> the texture vertex.  Each polygon has a normal at each vertex,

just like every 3D package.

> showing which way the polygon faces (simple enough) but you
> can smooth an object, making the normals approach each other
> from connected polygons.  In effect, this bends your polygons
> so that they connect smoothly (at least as far as the shader is
> concerned - it doesn't affect your geometry)

Unless I am missing something you were just wow'ed by phong shading which
most software has, including imagine.
It is easy to calculate the exact illumination at the vertices because you
know what the normal vector is at that point and how it relates to any and
all light sources.  The problem is the area within the boundries of the
polygons.  One form of smooth shading, Gaurand (pronounced Gaarow), calculates
the illumination at the vertices and then linearly interpolates these
illumination values across the polygon.  It is fast, which is why you are
seeing it used it more and more video games (mostly flight simulators), but
it is prone to some shading errors.
Phong shading is more accurate, but a lot slower, and it consists of
interpolating the normal vectors and not the illumination values.  This sounds
like what you were looking at, interpolating the normal vectors of the vertices
across the polygon and between connected polygons.

> Just hoping to stir a few minds about the wide variety of approaches
> out there.  Imagine is way cool, but there are other methods of
> rendering that you might want to check out.

If you are doing production work, you are crazy if you don't keep up on
developements in software on all platforms.  CG is not a religion, so don't
loose focus of the goal which is to produce the highest quality work possible
with the least amount of cost burden to yourself.  So explore everything you
can get your hands on.

             _     ___
David    ~  |_|,--'   |@,__
Watters   ~   ( )-_______-()`-

--
David R. Watters ([e-mail])    Cranel Inc. Development & Engineering
"Porsche.  The very name is, to many, the last word in sports cars. Any car
 blessed with these magic seven letters is sure to be the very best. Period!"
                        - Car and Driver, January 1993


##

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 23:46:31 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Marcelino Vilaubi)

>        Hmm.. you could ftp it wuarchive.  Maybe you need to do that
>MERGE on it.  I think whenever you do slices and joins you need to
>remerge the points to make the phong shading comes back since sometimes
>you will get duplicate points from the operation...

   Yes, first put the objects into the proper orientation, slice
them and delete the excess objects that are created. You can then join
the objects together and perform a merge to get rid of excess points.
Turn on phong shading and the seam where your objects meet will be smooth.
If there are any problems with shading you may try editing the attributes
and rendering again. If the two objects had different attributes they
will now be the same. Also, I have tried performing multiple merges
in a row on the same object with the point count dropping sometimes.
This doesn't always work, but sometimes it will cure phong problems.

I have used the slice and merge method and it works like a charm for me.

Good luck.

Mars

---
[e-mail]     [e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 09:48:24 EDT
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> >> > In one area I would like to blend two objects together, as if
> >> > one was "pulled" from the other. The two objects are intersecting and
> >> > separate.
> It seems to me that phong shading would only work to smooth edges
> of adjoining faces

Correct. Phong shading is simply surface normal averaging and interpolation.
If the two surfaces are not connected, the normals cannot be averaged and
interpolated. What you need to do is modify your surface geometry and joining
or merging will not do that. Instead, you must use booleans to add the
surfaces together and then possibly subdivide the resulting polygons in the
area of intersection. This should allow phong interpolation to be done. You
may further wish to use something like the magnet tool to manually smooth the
geometry at the intersection, especially if any polygon angles get too acute,
ie. less than 90 degrees.

What works VERY nicely for this kind of stuff is metaballs. They are also known
as blobby objects or iso-surfaces. Metaballs are like blobs of goo that when
in contact with other metaballs, automatically form a smooth junction. They
are invaluable for modeling organic objects. A human form can be built with
a few dozen metaballs with extreme ease.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 10:07:59 EDT
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> It's easier to let the user model with spline patches, but to then break
> them down in to polygons for rendering in the polygon renderer than to
> make a spline renderer.
>     I believe Toaster 3.0 now supports this

Yes, it does. However, LightWave never sees the spline patches. All polygon
tessellation is done in Modeler with a user definable polygon density. I
prefer patch subdivision to occur adaptively at render time, but the current
LW approach is probably faster (not to mention easier to add to the existing
software).
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: Re: stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 09:59:14 EDT
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> Anyway, one thing that Wavefront has that I wish Imagine had is
> the texture vertex.  Each polygon has a normal at each vertex,
> showing which way the polygon faces (simple enough) but you
> can smooth an object, making the normals approach each other
> from connected polygons.

This is precisely what phong shading does. It sounds to me that Wavefront
is merely giving you a little more control over how the abutting normals are
averaged together.

> About the grass field,

Creating or replicating any sort of geometry for grass would be crazy, it
requires FAR too many primitives. Instead, some sort of procedural rendering
technique using fractals, particle systems, etc. is much better suited to
the task without waisting billions of polygons. There are several Siggraph
papers that illustrate and describe these methods.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 10:15:52 EDT
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> >> > objects. In one area I would like to blend two objects together, as if
> >> > one was "pulled" from the other.
> Perhaps this is partly what is meant by the "bones" feature of Imagine 3.0.
> Any renderers out there with this feature?

As mentioned in my previous post, metaballs are what you want to achieve what
you are talking about. TDI recently added metaball modeling and rendering to
their software and if I remember, Prisms has it as well. I forget if Softimage
does. But no, no PC based software has this capability. Bones in Imagine
are likely a copy of what they are in LW, a means to put a skeletal structure
inside an object and deform the object based on the movements of the skeleton.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 8:41:28 PDT
From: Byrt Martinez <[e-mail]>

> Keep a watchfull eye on this stuff as it is showing a lot of promise, esp. the
> super metaballs which are setup in a hierarchy that specifies which metaballs
> can affect each other.

> Modeling with metaballs is the tough part right now.  One could make an
> impact be designing and writing a metaball modeler that was easy to use.

Actually, there's an article in the current Computer Graphics World (?) about
metaballs and super metaballs. Looks interesting, though didn't get a chance
to read it.

Byrt Martinez


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 9:44:37 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Walkup)


> Perhaps this is partly what is meant by the "bones" feature of Imagine 3.0.
> Any guesses or speculations?  Any renderers out there with this
> feature?  Real 3D?  Lightwave?  Aladdin?

Don't know much about the 'bones' in Imagine 3.0, but in LW 3.0, the
bones are applied to a single object.  As far as I've seen (very
little), you can't deform groups of separate objects with a single bone.
You can, of course, model an object in several pieces, but they need to
be joined together to be used as a 'boned' object.

--
Jeff Walkup, Digital Animator / Videographer | Energy = Matter = Spacetime
 [e-mail] - San Francisco   |         ERLEICHDA!


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 9:40:30 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Walkup)

>     Yes.  This is actually typical of modelers that are first
> polygonal based, and then they add splines.  It's easier to let the
> user model with spline patches, but to then break them down in to
> polygons for rendering in the polygon renderer than to make a spline
> renderer.  Ususally the user has control over how much detail different
> parts have, so curved parts can be smoother.

>     I believe Toaster 3.0 now supports this as I stated above.
> Perhaps Imagine will too...?

There is a shareware 3D modeller called "Icoons" that does exactly this.
It lets you model with splines, and then breaks the curves down into
polygons for rendering.  The modelling works a lot like
Journeyman/Playmation, (in fact, it reads JMan objects), it will output
to T3D for conversion to Imagine.  The detail level is adjustable (the
number of points/polys on each curve), but of course it is not adaptive
- once you save the object, it's written in stone.  Of course, you could
save several versions of the object with varying levels of detail, and
use the more detailed versions when the camera is closer, etc etc... to
sort of do the adaptive method manually.

Icoons isn't a bad little program, and I think with a little work it
could be very usable.

--
Jeff Walkup, Digital Animator / Videographer | Energy = Matter = Spacetime
 [e-mail] - San Francisco   |         ERLEICHDA!


##

Subject: MPEG converter
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 13:37:21 EST
From: Adam Benjamin <[e-mail]>

Hi all,

I am working on a rather large 256 color anim5 anim and I would like
to also create an Mpeg animation so I can upload it.

Is there a PD/shareware MPEG creation program for the PC or the Amiga?

Any leads would be appreciated,

Adam B.


##

Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 12:27:41 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Dave Wickard)

>From [e-mail] Sun Jun 13 16:05:38 1993
From: [e-mail] (John T. Grieggs)
Subject: Re:  Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
To: [e-mail] (Elmer Beachley)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 93 14:22:49 PDT
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>; from "Elmer Beachley" at Jun 12, 93 8:12 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL14]

>
> Kiernan:
>
> I've tried booting without any drivers except the mouse, so while I do
> use FTP and NFS normally, there is no software active when I try imagine.
>
> After I start imagine it reads the disk but I never get the startup picture
> on the VGA.  I think I tried changing the name of the startup picture
> to see if I got an error message, and as I remember, I did not.
>
> So I'm pretty much stumped.  I don't have the time right now for low level
> debugging.  Thanks for your ideas.
>
Make sure you're using the latest version of the mouse driver!  A friend of
mine tried out the package, and couldn't get it to work until he upgraded
to version 8.something of the Microsoft driver.

Use VESA drivers.  My VESA Local Bus card has them built in, but I bet yours
does not.  UNIVESA, available on an FTP site near you, adds VESA capability
to almost any SVGA card.

You do have a FP system, right?  You need at least a 386 system with Floating
Point support.

Wouldn't it be nice if Impulse were on the net passing this info around?  I
suggest that the keeper of the FAQ start a section on "I got Impulse PC and
it don't work, what do I do?".  :-)

> Elmer
>
_john


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 13:11:42 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Dale R Rogers)

|
|There is a shareware 3D modeller called "Icoons" that does exactly this.
|It lets you model with splines, and then breaks the curves down into
|polygons for rendering.  The modelling works a lot like
|Journeyman/Playmation, (in fact, it reads JMan objects), it will output
|to T3D for conversion to Imagine.  The detail level is adjustable (the
|number of points/polys on each curve), but of course it is not adaptive
|- once you save the object, it's written in stone.  Of course, you could
|save several versions of the object with varying levels of detail, and
|use the more detailed versions when the camera is closer, etc etc... to
|sort of do the adaptive method manually.
|
|Icoons isn't a bad little program, and I think with a little work it
|could be very usable.
|

    Speaking of which.  Where can I get Icoons (please include the
    TCP/IP address)?

    Dale




       _____________________________^_____________________________
                                  __ __
                                ____ ____
       _____________________________ _____________________________
       dale r. rogers
       afme support
       MailStop: LR24A4
       Tel: [phone]
       [e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 15:46:55 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Michael B. Comet)

>
>As mentioned in my previous post, metaballs are what you want to achieve what
>you are talking about. TDI recently added metaball modeling and rendering to
>their software and if I remember, Prisms has it as well. I forget if Softimage
>does. But no, no PC based software has this capability. Bones in Imagine
>are likely a copy of what they are in LW, a means to put a skeletal structure
>inside an object and deform the object based on the movements of the skeleton.
>

    Actually the copy of PoV-Ray I grabbed a couple of weeks ago for
my 486 has metaballs implemented as far as i can tell.  It may not be
that fancy, but they're there!



--
+======================================================================+
|  Michael B. Comet -   Software Engineer / Graphics Artist  - CWRU    |
|  [e-mail]  - "Silence those who oppose the freedom of speech" |
+======================================================================+


##

Subject: Seagate 3600A for DPS PAR, mailing list deal.
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 15:39:58 EDT
From: David [e-mail], GraphX head <[e-mail]>

> I hate to make a plug, but if people are planning on getting a drive for
> the DPS Personal Animation Recorder... I strongly suggest you get in touch
> with the company I work for...


Welp, I asked for it I guess.

I have been flooded with requests for pricing information on this drive, so
I will post a general reply and not a direct one to each individual.


The Situation:

Cranel Inc., is a distributor of mass storage and imaging products.  Cranel
sells almost exclusively to VARs (Value Added Resellers) and VADs (Value
Added Dealers) in the Unix storage and DOS/Windows - OS/2 imagine markets.

Cranel, as a distributor, does not sell into any Amiga markets directly, and
there are currently no Cranel VAD/VAR customers servicing Amiga customers.

As a unique situation, and as a personal project, I am providing a quote on
a storage product to my fellow Amiga users and graphics artist.

I am recieving _no_ commission or compensation for this, which is why I don't
have a problem with this article.  It is merely a gesture of friendship to
those of you I talk to through Email, mailing lists, newgroups, or in person.
It is also my little bit to help service a platform that gets nothing but
disrespect from the markets Cranel services everyday.

If I can just get someone like HP to notice that a few of their drives are
being sold to Amiga owners I will have accomplished something.


The Quote:

The only drive to have been qualified on the DPS Personal Animation Recorder
so far has been the Seagate 3600A.

The 3600A is a 540MB formatted IDE drive
It has a 10.5ms average seek for reads and a 12ms average seek for writes.
It is rated at 200k power hours between failure and draws 5.5watts idle.
The drive runs at 5,411RPM for a average lantency of 5.54ms.
It is a low-profile drive with dimmensions of; 1" high, 4" wide, 5.75" deep,
and it is 1.65lbs.
It has a 256KB multisegmented cache and a 2 year warrenty.
(This is all from the spec sheet)

The price is $750 plus shipping and must be done COD, Visa, or Mastercard.
No terms.

You must be a current member of one of the Amiga related mailing lists
at this time to be able to get it at this price.  This is merely to limit
the scope of who is involved.

I would like to publicly ask the administrators of these list if they could
send me a current subscription list to help keep things fair.

If you are interested you should get in touch with me through Email at:
[e-mail]


This unique situation does not apply to any current or future Cranel
customers that are already being represented by a Cranel salesperson.

             _     ___
David    ~  |_|,--'   |@,__
Watters   ~   ( )-_______-()`-

--
David R. Watters ([e-mail])    Cranel Inc. Development & Engineering
"Porsche.  The very name is, to many, the last word in sports cars. Any car
 blessed with these magic seven letters is sure to be the very best. Period!"
                        - Car and Driver, January 1993


##

Subject: An Imagine question (I use Microstation at work)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 13:13:57 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Thorne Kontos)

Greetings,
     Can someone point me towards an Imagine FAQ? I was wondering
about its capabilities, in particular its ability to do work with
splines. I have Microstation and ModelView on my system at work
and occasionally get a chance to play around with it.
     I have done a complete chess set and board and can put up an
RGB/TIFF/GIF file on wuarchive.wustl.edu if anyone is interested.
I am not quite happy with the knights I have done, but they work
with the rest of the pieces I designed. I have also done some geometric
figures (early attempts at 3D modeling). I can convert the design file
(Intergraph's proprietary format (.dgn) to the format used by AutoCad
and someone can take it from there if they want to fool around with the
models.
     My only complaint with ModelView is it lacks multiple light
sources and some of the subprograms (Escher in particular) tend to be
somewhat buggy at times. This program can animate but as I have seen
animations on my Amiga, I can honestly say the Amiga sometimes puts
the workstation generated animations to shame.
     I want to try to do a reasonable comparison between Imagine and
Intergraph's programs so I can decide which to buy (I get a hefty
employee discount and may get Microstation as it does a large number
of functions. I post a list of Microstation/ModelView's capabilities
if anyone is interested...

                                             Thanks,
                                             Thorne K. Kontos
                                             Intergraph A.P.D.


##

Subject: Icoons
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 13:33:33 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Walkup)


> Icoons isn't a bad little program, and I think with a little work it
> could be very usable.

I guess I should mention that Icoons can be found on Aminet in the

   gfx/3d

directory.  Under the name:

  ICoons1.0.lzh

or

  ICoons_Nofp.lzh   for those without an FPU.

--
Jeff Walkup, Digital Animator / Videographer | Energy = Matter = Spacetime
 [e-mail] - San Francisco   |         ERLEICHDA!


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: 16 Jun 1993 08:22:13 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

Mark Thompson <[e-mail]> writes:

>What works VERY nicely for this kind of stuff is metaballs. They are also known
>as blobby objects or iso-surfaces. Metaballs are like blobs of goo that when
>in contact with other metaballs, automatically form a smooth junction. They
>are invaluable for modeling organic objects. A human form can be built with
>a few dozen metaballs with extreme ease.

One may remember a publicity image published in CGW slightly over a year
ago of a female torso done with metaballs. I believe this is the torso
referred to in the recent CGW article on Metaball technology that required
only 43 metaballs.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
\\\Stephen Menzies, TFX Animation Inc., TAARNA Systems, Montreal, Qc.///
[[]] [e-mail] [[]] [e-mail] [[]] [e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: 16 Jun 1993 08:15:19 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

Mark Thompson <[e-mail]> writes:

>As mentioned in my previous post, metaballs are what you want to achieve what
>you are talking about. TDI recently added metaball modeling and rendering to
>their software and if I remember, Prisms has it as well. I forget if Softimage
>does. But no, no PC based software has this capability. Bones in Imagine
>are likely a copy of what they are in LW, a means to put a skeletal structure
>inside an object and deform the object based on the movements of the skeleton.

The recent Computer Graphics World article on Metaball technology states
that SoftImage Image has incorporated V-Clay of Magic-Box,CA, into ver2.6
as "Meta-Clay". Apparently the advantage of V-Clay is that it can render
with scanline algorithms and from what I understand, can be hardware
shaded in real-time during the modelling process.
No mention though of whether they have a solution to incapability of
of metaball technology to accept texture-coordinates (pretty big problem),
though I would expect that a metaball object could be converted to a
mesh.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
\\\Stephen Menzies, TFX Animation Inc., TAARNA Systems, Montreal, Qc.///
[[]] [e-mail] [[]] [e-mail] [[]] [e-mail]


##

Subject: renderman... pd??
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 10:10:14 -0400
From: "Mr. Scott Krehbiel" <[e-mail]>

I was asked if Renderman is pd, and no, I'm afraid it's quite
hefty in price.  The Unix version costs a couple thousand, from
what I've heard, which is nothing compared to what.. $50,000
for Wavefront,  but too expensive for the curious hobbyist.

Renderman also has a version for the Mac, and it uses the same
command language, so you can kinda preview stuff on the Mac, then
do your real work on a workstation.  I have no idea how much the
Mac version costs.

That is a good point that was brought up, though... there's so much
cool PD stuff that you can script for...  eh heck!  Get Rayshade
and see what you can do with that!  Then, if you like scripting,
spring for Renderman (and a Unix box to run it on)

Scott


##

Subject: Re: Fred Fish
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 09:51:38 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    >   Here are two FTP places I've found with Fred Fish libraries:
    >
    > ux3.cso.uiuc.edu  (128.174.5.61) -- Fred Fish, AmiNet, other
    > nic.funet.fi     (128.214.6.100) -- Fred Fish, LOTS of music, other
    >

    Excuse my (and I assume others) ignorance, but what exactly are the
    Fred Fish libraries?  For any interested parties, they can be found on
    ux3.cso.uiuc.edu in directory /amiga/fish.  Now if I only knew what
    they were...
----------
Are you a PC user?? Is so, forget it you don't apply...

If not,  read on...

Fred Fish is a dude that back in 1986 (when Amiga software was
nearly non-existent) came to a user group meeting and showed off
the programs that he made so far.. At the time, hardly anyone
had written software for the Amiga outside of CBM. What happened
was that Fred got elected to head thier public domain archives...
To make a long story short, Fred is now the organizer of a 850+
public domain / shareware disk distribution called the Fred
Fish Disk Library.. Amazing Computing maintains a list of all the
programs in his collection in the back of thier magazines and
there are programs like "Aquarium" that do complete database
searches, like "Archie" on the internet does FTP sites...

I'm pretty sure that there isn't a PD library in the whole
world that is as well organized as Fred Fish's. Each disk
comes with documentation on how to get Fred Fish disks,
a "Contents" document that gives a description of each program on
the disk, a "C" directory that contains commands that are used
to read documents, view animations, play music, view pictures and
decompress files, relating to the context of the disk.
Each Fred Fish disk can carry 880K of programs so 850x880 Kilobytes
is how much storage you need to carry 850 disks of the distribution.
It used to be that you would have to pay 7 bucks to get a copy
of one Fred Fish disk, which is still true if you can't afford the
alternatives... Since the software is Freely Distributable,
there are archives all around the Internet with Fred Fish disks,
there is also two (?) CDROM disks that contain the entire Fred Fish
distribution but the price is unbelievably low... I think you get a
copy with the 50 dollar SCSI interface CDROM drive support package
that Xetec is selling.

The disks contain GNU distributions, TeX editors, Postscript interpreters,
compilers, games, pictures, animations, music modules (few though),
terminal emulators, paint programs, archiving programs, disk utilities..
You name it, it probably has it. However, there is still a handful of programs
(quite a big handful) that Fred Fish doesn't have in his collection.
For that we have archives of sites like Aminet and AB20 that contain
many sparsely-documented (as far as Fred Fish disks go) programs like Rend24
and ProTracker. The Aminet and AB20 archives are available in CDROM
form (ofcourse) from Walnut Creek for about 25 bucks apiece (I'm not
sure if they are still selling AB20's archive). If you need thier
phone number, I can probably get you it... However, they should be
pretty easy to find since the places they archive the most exist
on the Internet (via FTP anonymous)... The archives done by Walnut Creek
are so well known that they tend to be the primary part of most users'
CDROM libraries now.


##

Subject: Re: stuff
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 11:01:00 -0400
From: "Mr. Scott Krehbiel" <[e-mail]>

I realize in re-reading my earlier post that I wasn't at all clear
in what I was saying.  I hate it when I do that!

What I was wowed by was the amount of control that Wavefront gives
you over rendering.  I'm still learning this stuff, so pardon me
if I get my facts mixed up, but anyway... in Wave, each vertex
has its own normal, not just each polygon.  That means that you
could take one corner of a square, and rotate its normal, making that
corner face a different direction, not the whole square.  In this
way, adjacent faces are as good as joined when you make their
vertex normals face the same way, 'cause at the edge where they
join, they are both considered to be facing the same direction.
It's like you can bend a polygon.  The results far exceed anything
I've seen from other shaders.


The neat thing is that you have total control over what's happening
in the shader.  You don't just turn smoothing off and on, you can
set which way each normal points (at least that is what I'm told -
I haven't learned how to do that yet).  Trust me - Imagine can't
touch this!  Wavefront makes Imagine's renderer look like a bunch
of canned effects.

Scott


##

Subject: icoons
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 11:32:13 -0400
From: "Mr. Scott Krehbiel" <[e-mail]>

What method of spline tesselation does icoons use?  Can you specify
the method?  There are different methods producing very different
results, some more expensive than others in terms of the number
of polygons created.

Scott


##

Subject: renderman grass
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 11:26:19 -0400
From: "Mr. Scott Krehbiel" <[e-mail]>

I haven't used renderman, so this is all speculation on what I've
heard, but when I took an "intro to renderman" class, I was told
that you can write your own instructions for how an object gets
rendered.  The type of stuff that I'm told you can do with this
is to create a patch of grass, then write a shader that says
whenever you reach x number of units over, look back to this point
to get your color of this other point over here, basically meaning
that you could tile one patch of grass across an entire field, with
hardly any polygons.  If you got good at it, you could use perhaps
only a couple blades of grass, and create some randomness in your
tiling.  I think it would be possible to also write in perspective
in your shader, so that the grass is tiled in three dimensions, and
recedes properly.
Matter of fact, you might be able to have the shader figure out
what your camera angle is toward one side of a hill, then render
the patch of grass at that angle and place it there, then move on
to the next part of the hill, etc.  The neat thing is that this
would use a minimum of polygons.

Man!  this is sounding like fun, the more I think about it!  I'm
gonna have to start playing with this program.

Lets see... learn C (no problem)
            Buy Renderman (no problem)
            Buy a Mac   (BIG problem)
   nah... I'll just use the schools computers

Scott


##

Subject: Re: Icoons
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 10:50:29 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Dale R Rogers)

|I guess I should mention that Icoons can be found on Aminet in the

    What is Aminet?  Is it a node out there in netland?  Is it a BBS?
    I want ICoons but I don't want to subscribe to a BBS just to get
    it.  Do you know of a node on the Internet where I can find a
    copy?

|
|   gfx/3d
|
|directory.  Under the name:
|
|  ICoons1.0.lzh
|
|or
|
|  ICoons_Nofp.lzh   for those without an FPU.
|


       _____________________________^_____________________________
                                  __ __
                                ____ ____
       _____________________________ _____________________________
       dale r. rogers
       afme support
       MailStop: LR24A4
       Tel: [phone]
       [e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 09:18:43 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    > for the Amiga need to stop depending on the "comfee chair" that
    > Amiga users give them when they make mistakes, because it causes
    > developers to (at least the more dishonest and crooked ones)
    > ignore potential errors. I really believe that about 50% of the Amiga software
    > that exists, is overpriced for the ammount of obvious effort that
    > is put into it.
    GRRR...Bite my tongue, suppress flames....and pray those guys in their "comfee
    chair" don't leave the Amiga behind....
-------------
Get the press and pillows... Ya I got the "comfee chair" bit from monty python..
Some (if not most) Amiga users complain... I mean, some think it is a
blessing if they even get to edit 3D objects. If something is wrong, they
don't complain... some will even advertise the software even if it
has 20 problems with it... Take for instance DMCS... I was lucky to learn the
program but in the initial stages the DMCS users should have torn down
Electronic Arts door. If Impulse is bad enough that they don't answer
their phone and they only have a programming team of one, I would
send complaint letters and contact the better business bureau.
-------------
    > varies from PC to PC. I would suggest trying it on many different
    > machine of different BIOS, operating system revisions
    > and possibly system hardware. If it still fails... Then I
    > would contact Impulse.

    Tee hee, tee hee....
-------------
Boy you sound like a sorry customer...
-------------
    >That is a tough one.. I would have to have a copy of it myself to
    >diagnose it... You could probably DEBUG the binaries and do a trace to
    >see where it goes or probably find out where the message is being called
    >and find the subroutine...  Chances are the code was compiled
    >entirely in C and tracing would be near impossible... But it is worth a
    >try..

    <Insert favorite outburst of laughter here>
    Oh, stop, my sides are killing me.

-------------
Hey, I have traced the bootstrap of MSDOS with complete understanding...
I know tracing Imagine is near impossible but I was thinking that the problem
may be something that happens at first, so it may be in at the first 500
instructions... Then again, the code is not linear and it would be like
finding a needle in a field of haystacks. It was just a thought.
What you could probably do is find some way to get the instruction
in a physical address that was last executed and from that you might be
able to have a debugging program trace all the way to that point then
list which were the last instructions to be executed... If the last
instruction is the target of a jump, there will be no chance in finding the
bug (probably) but if not then the error may happen withinh the last 30
or 300 or 3000 instructions.  If the code is C and compiled (most likely)
there is no hope in the world that you would find the error unless you
had the original C source code. I think it sucks that Impulse doesn't
beta test (an obvious conclusion) thier software before releasing it.
It is almost as if they hate to find errors.
-------------
    Sorry, had a rough morning...;)  I'm better now.


##

Subject: Re: stuff
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 10:23:54 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    About the grass field, it seems that a program like Renderman would
    be able to tackle this quite easily.  In Renderman, you can import
    a model and write a C script telling Renderman how to deform,
    texture, replicate, shade, etc. etc. you object.
    You could load in a blade of grass, and have Renderman deform it along
    the x axis over a set period, then replicate it, then stretch it
    vertically, then place it.  If you tell it to do this repeatedly,
--------
Rayshade will do this... Do you remember the photographs that
were shown in a recent (probably 2 years ago) edition of National
Geographic, where pictures ofrenderings of Mars were made??
That was all done with Rayshade.. I have written a program that
will even let you fly through a world may with rayshade using
paths created on Imagine (not Imagine Paths but contiguous
paths made up of connected vertices).

Rayshade also handles Motion Blur, over 8 kinds of textures,
CSG, ray-tracing/rendering, several primitives including Phong-Shaded
triangles and Altitude maps. It is in Public Domain and can be compiled
on most any UNIX machine. POV is pretty cool too. Renderman
is better for most things, but for what it is not, Rayshade is!!
--------
    you should be able to create a whole field of tall, short, fat, and
    thin grass that all blows in the wind together.  I believe that
--------
as easy as:

name grass
list
#include "grass.ray"
end

name line_of_grass
list
object green grass translate 0 0 0
object green grass translate -10 0 0
object green grass translate -20 0 0
object green grass translate -30 0 0
object green grass translate -60 0 0
end

name field_of_grass
list
object green line_of_grass translate 0 0 0
object green line_of_grass translate 0 -10 0
object green line_of_grass translate 0 -50 0
object green line_of_grass translate 0 -90 0
object green line_of_grass translate 0 -100 0
/* ... */
end

object green field_of_grass translate 0 0 0
object green field_of_grass translate 0 -110 0
object green field_of_grass translate -70 -110 0
object green field_of_grass translate -70 0 0

eyep 500 500 100
lookp 0 0 0
eyesep .15 /* for 3D renderings */

/* etc. */
--------------------
    Renderman can do these types of things without using up all kinds of
    memory on models - instead, you write the object replication into
--------------------
Same with Rayshade.
--------------------
    the shading algorythm somehow.  If you're interested in doing
    organic things like trees and fields, you might want to give
    Renderman a try.
--------------------
My friend Pat McCormick wrote code (not to mention got a parallel
version of Rayshade going) to do forest simulations and
one an award at the nearby Los Alamos National Laboratories.
He has written code to do Smoke/Cloud simulations too.
As soon as we get the Indigos he plans to start back up... If he
does, and when he does, I will see about making an animation
and I will post it to wuarchive...
--------------------
    BTW: I've been told that Renderman was used (perhaps with some imported
         models) for the Listerine comercial with the bottle swinging
         through the forest (to the tune of Jungle Boy by Baltimora)
--------------------
Yes, and lightsavers, the listerine commercials for fighting tooth
decay, the new minty listerine  (like George of the Jungle... ;-) ),
and the Boxing match, Planters Peanuts (for which Livesavers is
a sub), and I believe the DOW "scrubbing bubbles" commercials too.

The only problem with Renderman is it is slower than hardening
lava... But at least it is as spectacular as lava.
-------------------
    Just hoping to stir a few minds about the wide variety of approaches
    out there.  Imagine is way cool, but there are other methods of
    rendering that you might want to check out.

    Scott
-------------------
Agreed!!! POV is pretty cool and looks like a Renderman Jr. to me.
Rayshade supports some features that POV may not, that
are particular attractive (like motion blur, bump mapping,
32-bit image map support, animations, C preprocessor and program
structure embeded in design). Radiance is another one, but it is
harder to learn...

Kiernan
-------------------


##

Subject: Re: Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 11:12:42 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Setzer)

> From [e-mail] Wed Jun 16 10:21:00 1993
> > for the Amiga need to stop depending on the "comfee chair" that
> > Amiga users give them when they make mistakes, because it causes
> > developers to (at least the more dishonest and crooked ones)
> > ignore potential errors. I really believe that about 50% of the Amiga software
> > that exists, is overpriced for the ammount of obvious effort that
> > is put into it.
> GRRR...Bite my tongue, suppress flames....and pray those guys in their "comfee
> chair" don't leave the Amiga behind....
> -------------
> Some (if not most) Amiga users complain... I mean, some think it is a
> blessing if they even get to edit 3D objects. If something is wrong, they
> don't complain... some will even advertise the software even if it
> has 20 problems with it... Take for instance DMCS... I was lucky to learn the
> -------------
Let me clairify my GRRRR.  It wasn't the complaining that I was complaining
about.  It was your comment on overpriced software.  Have you taken a look
a the price of MAC software and to a lesser extent, PCsw?  Sure there are really
nice packages out there, high end stuff, that you pay for and is probably worth
it.  But they got crap that you pay for too.  Here on the Amiga we have programs
like Vista and Scenery Animator for under $100!!!  To me, that is amazing!!!
And they send free(thats right, I said FREE(as well they should)) upgrades when
they make mistakes. I've seen 3D packages on the MAC(can't recall which one)
with half the features that cost twice as much as Imagine(keeping with the topic
of the list).  So, don't get me wrong...ya gotta complain if it don't work. But
ya gotta love it if it do.

> > varies from PC to PC. I would suggest trying it on many different
> > machine of different BIOS, operating system revisions
> > and possibly system hardware. If it still fails... Then I
> > would contact Impulse.
>
>     Tee hee, tee hee....
> -------------
> Boy you sound like a sorry customer...
> -------------

Sorry that they don't provide better support! ;)

> >That is a tough one.. I would have to have a copy of it myself to
> >diagnose it... You could probably DEBUG the binaries and do a trace to
> >see where it goes or probably find out where the message is being called
> >and find the subroutine...  Chances are the code was compiled
> >entirely in C and tracing would be near impossible... But it is worth a
> >try..
>
> <Insert favorite outburst of laughter here>
> Oh, stop, my sides are killing me.
>
> -------------
> Hey, I have traced the bootstrap of MSDOS with complete understanding...
> I know tracing Imagine is near impossible but I was thinking that the problem
> may be something that happens at first, so it may be in at the first 500
> instructions... Then again, the code is not linear and it would be like
> finding a needle in a field of haystacks. It was just a thought.
> What you could probably do is find some way to get the instruction
> in a physical address that was last executed and from that you might be
> able to have a debugging program trace all the way to that point then
> list which were the last instructions to be executed... If the last

And say you find that MOVE that is writing to NULL or some other illegal address
...???  I mean sure, finding it isn't so bad, maybe...but...now what?  Call
Impulse, and tell them their MOVE is writing to a bad addr?  I'd say your best
bet, as someone pointed out earlier(maybe it was you) is to figure out what
differences there are between the non-working setup and the working setup.
I know some people have gotten it working without having to trace through on the
assembler level.


Tom Setzer
[e-mail]

"And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery
intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" - Calvin


##

Subject: T3DDD and Icoons question...
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 13:12:46 -0400
From: Mark Marino <[e-mail]>

Are either of these available for the PC platform, or do either come
with source code to compile on the PC platform?

Thanks,
Mark


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 11:23:31 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    As mentioned in my previous post, metaballs are what you want to achieve what
    you are talking about. TDI recently added metaball modeling and rendering to
    their software and if I remember, Prisms has it as well. I forget if Softimage
----------
Like most everything else.. so does Rayshade!!! It has metaballs..
But I don't know about complex object spliting/merging..
/***********************************************************************
** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
***********************************************************************/


##

Subject: Re: icoons
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 12:23:36 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Dave Wickard)

>From [e-mail] Wed Jun 16 11:54:51 1993
From: [e-mail] (John T. Grieggs)
Subject: Re: icoons
To: [e-mail] (Mr. Scott Krehbiel)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 10:12:37 PDT
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>; from "Mr. Scott Krehbiel" at Jun 16, 93 11:32 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL14]

>
>
> What method of spline tesselation does icoons use?  Can you specify
> the method?  There are different methods producing very different
> results, some more expensive than others in terms of the number
> of polygons created.
>
Icoons is PD, with source.  I bet you could get it and see!  :-)

> Scott
>
_john


##

Subject: Re: stuff
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 11:19:28 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    > About the grass field,

    Creating or replicating any sort of geometry for grass would be crazy, it
    requires FAR too many primitives. Instead, some sort of procedural rendering
    technique using fractals, particle systems, etc. is much better suited to
    the task without waisting billions of polygons. There are several Siggraph
    papers that illustrate and describe these methods.
-----------
Ya, and I suppose you can write us the code to do it??
I serriously doubt it... If so, it would take you several weeks..
It is much easier to replicate objects.. Besides, you really aren't
using up memory like you would if you were actually copying objects...
You load only the primitives of one object, then the ray-tracer
(I suppose) treats duplicates as one in the same, just instantiated and
morphed elsewhere.. There was a animation I saw where some instantiated
several manequins on unicycles to infinity... Don't tell me it
is crazy...

I have made an army of 80 soldiers each with 10,000 polygons using
rayshade and a typical render at 1280x1024 would take about two or
three hours.. Each soldier was the same. What would be hard is
to simulate grass with polgons... It is simpler to use fractals and
particle systems, it wouldn't require more memory than just
the algorithms to describe the objects, but using polygons is
not as bad as making multiple copies like in Imagine, because
it has no way of instantiating objects, which really SUCKS!!...

(How do you like my new .sig??)
/***********************************************************************
** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
***********************************************************************/


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 11:57:40 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    One may remember a publicity image published in CGW slightly over a year
    ago of a female torso done with metaballs. I believe this is the torso
    referred to in the recent CGW article on Metaball technology that required
    only 43 metaballs.
----------
Yes, I was thinking about that when they said Metaballs..
All metaballs are is particles with specific mass and gravitational force
that cause globule objects to be formed by attracting material
of other metaball particles.. Rayshade has support for it...
Rayshade also has support for intersecting, union and differences
of two objects (true boolean objects).
I guess metaballs are a rendering program's idea of jaggy free
elements.
----------
    \\\Stephen Menzies, TFX Animation Inc., TAARNA Systems, Montreal, Qc.///
    [[]] [e-mail] [[]] [e-mail] [[]] [e-mail]
----------
Hey, I didn't know you were still around here... Have you made any
more pictures? Loved that Flower you did in Amiga World. Would be nice
to see how you did that, I mean like a tutorial... Will you be
doing any of that stuff in the future?
/***********************************************************************
** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
***********************************************************************/


##

Subject: Re: Phong shading and stuff
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 11:28:47 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    >     I believe Toaster 3.0 now supports this as I stated above.
    > Perhaps Imagine will too...?

    There is a shareware 3D modeller called "Icoons" that does exactly this.
    It lets you model with splines, and then breaks the curves down into
    polygons for rendering.  The modelling works a lot like
------------
And it is incredibly impossible to learn how to use.. I gave up on it.
------------
    Journeyman/Playmation, (in fact, it reads JMan objects), it will output
    to T3D for conversion to Imagine.  The detail level is adjustable (the
    number of points/polys on each curve), but of course it is not adaptive
    - once you save the object, it's written in stone.  Of course, you could
    save several versions of the object with varying levels of detail, and
    use the more detailed versions when the camera is closer, etc etc... to
    sort of do the adaptive method manually.

    Icoons isn't a bad little program, and I think with a little work it
    could be very usable.
------------
Yes, make that much more work... The Amiga version is near impossible..
/***********************************************************************
** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
***********************************************************************/


##

Subject: Re: MPEG converter
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 11:49:38 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    I am working on a rather large 256 color anim5 anim and I would like
    to also create an Mpeg animation so I can upload it.

    Is there a PD/shareware MPEG creation program for the PC or the Amiga?
-------------
You don't want to do that with 256 colors even... Besides MPEG
is almost the same as JPEGing frames and packing (not quite, MPEG
also does some form of delta compression)... That is what I do, I JPEG my
animations before hand then I pack them... On some programs you can't do
this, but if you can write an Arexx program to do so, it would
be better than puting it first into ANIM5 format. There might be some
way to split a ANIM5 animation into individually JPEG'd frames using
Rend24. I am using REND24 to put Anim5 Animations together from
hundreds of JPEG'd frames. It takes a while to put an animation
together, but it is worth it. For instance, last night I rendered
(finally) my roller coaster animation (390 frames) as a ANIM5
animation using Rend24, and it took about 4 hours to make the animation.
Completed it was about 3.5 megs... In jpeg form it was about 2 megs.
But the color resolution was full 24-bit color on the JPEG's frames
(well 24-bit is not realistic, more like what your eye can ultimately
perceive). The animation I made from the JPEG'd frames was HAM and
320x200.. You could just as easily made a HAM8 animation out of it
just by selecting the HAM8 format from Rend24... Remember Rend24
is in Shareware, so you should be able to find it.

Thanks all for helping me find that REND24, it has worked wonders
for me..

- Kiernan
/***********************************************************************
** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
***********************************************************************/


##

Subject: Grass
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 15:05 EDT
From: [e-mail]

The script based Amiga rendering program Raydance can create a field of
grass using a "cloning" technique. If you can get ahold of a copy of
the old Avid magazine, Vol 3 , Issue 5, it has a picture on the cover
of a patch of grass created with RayDance. Note that I have not owner
(owner-->owned) or used RayDance, I'm just repeating the info given in
the "About the Cover" box.

                            Scott Corley


[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: MPEG converter
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 15:23:07 EST
From: Adam Benjamin <[e-mail]>

    I am working on a rather large 256 color anim5 anim and I would like
    to also create an Mpeg animation so I can upload it.

    Is there a PD/shareware MPEG creation program for the PC or the Amiga?
-------------
>You don't want to do that with 256 colors even... Besides MPEG
>is almost the same as JPEGing frames and packing (not quite, MPEG
>also does some form of delta compression)...

Opps, I should have been more clear.  I am creating a 256 color
anim5 anim for the Amiga people (well, now I am starting to think
about just making a ham-6 anim5, but I digress)  I also want to
make an MPEG movie for the MAC and PC folks I will be sending this
anim to.  All my initial frames are IFF24, I'll use Imagemaster to
convert them to 256color and it looks like I have a PD PC program that
encodes 256color GIFS into MPEG movies.  So I will use Imagemaster to
write out the ANIM-5 along with 400 GIF images so I can load them
into this PC MPEG encoder.... Should only take about a week 8^)

I could convert the IFF24's to targa then into this MPEG encoder but
that would mean moving some serious amounts of data between my 4000
and the PC.  Probably not worth the extra time it would take.

Thanks,

Adam B


##

Subject: Re: icoons
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 11:53:01 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Walkup)


> What method of spline tesselation does icoons use?  Can you specify
> the method?  There are different methods producing very different
> results, some more expensive than others in terms of the number
> of polygons created.


>From the Icoons docs:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

ICoons is based on a special type  of  curves  called  "Kochanek-Bartels
splines", these splines has the following properties:

     They pass through their control points (called knots),

     It is possible to control the local behaviour of the spline at each
     knot,  by   varying  three  parameters  called  TENSION,  BIAS  and
     CONTINUITY.

It is possible to model nearly any curve by placing knots and  modifying
these three parameters at each knot.

[...]

The surfaces created by ICoons, are so called bicubically blended  Coons
surfaces,  such  a  surface  is  fully defined by its (up to) 4 boundary
curves.  The points on the surface  is  found  simply  by  interpolation
between these boundary curves.

     The surface is defined fully by the boundary curves, this mean that
     there's no control points inside the surface.   (The  more  popular
     Bezier  surfaces  has  internal  control  points.   It  can be very
     difficult for the user to visualize where these controlpoints are).

     The surface interpolates (ie. passes through) the  boundary  curves
     and the control points.

Together these two  'features'  makes  it  semi-easy  for  the  user  to
visualize the surface by looking on the boundary curves.

In ICoons, a surface is made up of patches: Each patch (which is a Coons
surface) is defined by the 2, 3 or  4  connected  spline  segments  that
surround it. These segments must not all be from the same spline.

If there's more than 4 segments, then the area defined by  the  segments
don't define a patch, even if the segments comes from different patches.

[...]

Generate - TTDDD format                   (Shortcut: LAMiga-S)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Generate a file containing a TTDDD description of  the  current  object.
Each  patch will be cut up in a N * N of triangles where N is the "Patch
resolution" parameter from the configuration window.

A little N creates small and fast objects, while a big N creates objects
which follow the corresponding splines much nicer.

[etc...]

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hope that answers your question!

Not a bad little program - though it could use an "UNDO" function.

There are NTSC and PAL versions in the archive.

The author says he probably won't have time to work on it further,
though the SOURCE CODE is included.

--
Jeff Walkup, Digital Animator / Videographer | Energy = Matter = Spacetime
 [e-mail] - San Francisco   |         ERLEICHDA!


##

Subject: RE: MPEG converter
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 22:27:21 BST
From: [e-mail]

> You don't want to do that with 256 colors even... Besides MPEG
> is almost the same as JPEGing frames and packing (not quite, MPEG
> also does some form of delta compression)...

Actually I beleive that the main difference between the two is that the
compression method used by MPEG is not symetrical. ie it takes more to compress
than to decompress. Faster Playback ?


> That is what I do, I JPEG my
> animations before hand then I pack them... On some programs you can't do
> this, but if you can write an Arexx program to do so, it would
> be better than puting it first into ANIM5 format. There might be some
> way to split a ANIM5 animation into individually JPEG'd frames using
> Rend24. I am using REND24 to put Anim5 Animations together from
> hundreds of JPEG'd frames.

So are you saying that you render a load of pictures convert them to JPEG
Then put them into an ANIM5 file ? If so can a normal ANIM5 player play
the JPEGed anim back, and what sort of frame rate do you get ?


> .. rest deleted


Is this a frequently used method?
Has anyone got any examples?


Jason


+----------------------------  -   -   -  -
|  Signature Under Construction ...
|

|

|


##

Subject: Re:  Grass
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 15:13:12 PDT
From: "Charles Congdon, DEC Products Division, [phone]" <[e-mail]>

>> About the grass field,
>
>   Creating or replicating any sort of geometry for grass would be crazy, it
>  requires FAR too many primitives. Instead, some sort of procedural rendering
>  technique using fractals, particle systems, etc. is much better suited to
>  the task without waisting billions of polygons. There are several Siggraph
>  papers that illustrate and describe these methods.
>  -----------
>  Ya, and I suppose you can write us the code to do it??
>  I serriously doubt it... If so, it would take you several weeks..
>  It is much easier to replicate objects.. Besides, you really aren't
>  using up memory like you would if you were actually copying objects...
>  You load only the primitives of one object, then the ray-tracer
>  (I suppose) treats duplicates as one in the same, just instantiated and
>  morphed elsewhere.. There was a animation I saw where some instantiated
>  several manequins on unicycles to infinity... Don't tell me it
>  is crazy...

    Let's be clear here.  For each replicated object you need to store at
least postion/scale/and orientation triplets.  Extras could include also
storing a world-space bounding volume and any surface attributes that change
from copy to copy.  When the renderer figures out that it needs to do a
rigorous intersection test with a replicated object, it will make
the appropriate coordinate transforms to object space and use the results for
the scanline or ray interestion test.  Only one copy of the actual points is
needed.

    In the case of a manequins, this will save lots of RAM since the
information for each replicated object will use *much* less space than complete
object descriptions.  But in the case of grass, where the blade can be made up
of as little as 3 points, the savings will be less spectacular (the actual
magnitude depends on the implementation of the object description data
structures).  You *still* have to store *something* about each individual
blade.  Use thousands of blades, and even replication can eat up a fair amount
of RAM. (if anything, it lets you do a heck of a lot more with your scene
before you run out of RAM).

    Still, RAM isn't the only issue here.  You still have to render those
thousands of grass blades.  They'll be pretty close together, so the renderer
will end up spending a fair amount of time doing intersection or Z-buffer
testing, and sorting.  Have fun if it does antialiasing.

    As was mentioned, fractals and particle systems will also to the job
for grass.  Fractals typically require a fair amount of RAM and CPU, and
particle systems require memory to track each particle (the amount depends on
the complexity of your particle simulation).  The results, however, can be
*very* satisfying.

    In short, there's no free lunch.  Any method of rendering complex
natural objects will require a fair amount of RAM, processing time, or both.
The result you get pretty much depends on your deadlines and how much
memory you have available.  And the tools you have available, both in your head
and on your hard disk...

    Cheers,
    Charles


##

Subject: New subscriber w/ questions
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 17:37:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: Peter Garza <[e-mail]>

Greetings all!  I just subscribed to the IML and had a
couple of questions.  I am making an anim of 2 dancing
robots and set up their cycles in the Cycle editor.  I
changed the position, slightly, in one of the keyframes and
went to the Stage to see what the change had done.  When I
went back to the Cycle and tried to reload the cycle,
Imagine said "Not a (proper) animated object file" and
couldn't load it.  It still turns up in the Stage and
Detail editors fine.  This happened one other seemingly
random time.  Any help on how to get it back, or do I have
to remake the cycle with snapshots (urg).
    My second question is haw can I get Imagine to make
an anim that can be loaded into DPaint 4.  If I make a
project in ANIM format and load the anim into DPaint, the
frames degrade in successive frames until the anim looks
like colored TV static.  In a similar vein, if I play an
anim using AmigaVision, it plays fine until the last few or
the very last frame.  The frames then turn into static-like
pictures.

Thanks for any help,
Peter Garza  ([e-mail])


##

Subject: Retina and Imagine problem
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 16:12:02 -0700
From: Mark Davis <[e-mail]>

I am running Imagine on a 1024x768 screen.  I am experiencing crashes
while in the Stage editor whenever I try to zoom in closely in one of the
tri-views.  Before the machine crashes I noticed that the screen wasn't
being refreshed properly (dragging an object left pixel trails of the
object).  Have any of you Retina/Imagine users experienced this?

mark


##

Subject: Pov Where To Find
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 2:00:53 CEST
From: Santi Lo Monaco <[e-mail]>

Finding PoV should not be that hard:
try   ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de
under /pub/dkbtrace/POV-Ray1.0/
there you will find PoV executables,
under /pub/dkbtrace/utils/
lots of utilities and another great Raytracer -VIVID-
under /pub/dkbtrace/incoming/
lots of new utilities and scenes and another tracer: PolyRay

there is a list for PoV users too:
subscribe dkb-l yourname
this should be in the body of your mail, list address is:
[e-mail]
it is not really busy lately but we are all waiting for PoV version2 which
should be out soon (would like to know when though!)


BYE to all fellow imagineers hoping one day i can imagine too
(BTW i guess we the beta-testers of Imagine Pc will be upgraded free to
the new version ?!?!)

One question: Somebody mentions "Metaballs", are they related somehow to
those
"Blobs" cited in some RT literature?


##

Subject: Wavefront v. Imagine
Date:     Wed, 16 Jun 1993 21:37:04 -0400
From: John J Humpal <[e-mail]>

Mr. Scott Krehbiel writes:
>
> Trust me - Imagine can't
> touch this!  Wavefront makes Imagine's renderer look like a bunch
> of canned effects.

    Well, jeez, what do you expect?!  Imagine costs $200, and
what does Wavefront cost?  $8000?  $10000?  Wavefront makes
all the consumer grade renderers look weak, I'm sure.
--
-John

John J. Humpal -- [e-mail] -- short .sig, std. disclaimer


##

Subject: Re: Fred Fish
Date: 16 Jun 1993 22:11:07 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Jean Pepin)

> I'm pretty sure that there isn't a PD library in the whole world that is as
> well organized as Fred Fish's. Each disk comes with documentation on how to
> get Fred Fish disks, a "Contents" document that gives a description of each
> program on the disk, a "C" directory that contains commands that are used to
> read documents, view animations, play music, view pictures and decompress
> files, relating to the context of the disk. Each Fred Fish disk can carry
> 880K of programs so 850x880 Kilobytes is how much storage you need to carry
> 850 disks of the distribution.

Sorry but CAM disk are well organized, each number are theme classifed, a
number can contain up to 5 disk full of compressed data, the collection
reach 775 number, far more than 1000 disk, contain some theme like, DTP
fonts, Objects 3d, Pictures, music modules, Vector clip art, Animations, who
are praticly inexistant in Fish, also all data are tested and judged for
quality. Fish disk is the well know PD collection, not the only one.

Attention: this is just information, not a revision or publicity, i'm the
CAM maker. :)
--
\***  CCC AAA M   M  CLUB AMIGA MONTREAL           ------- Internet -------
***   C   A A MM MM  3501 Cote Ste-Catherine #212 |   [e-mail]   |
***** C   AAA M M M  Montreal, Quebec H3T 1Z8      ------------------------
 ***  CCC A A M   M  [phone]                Jean Pepin -- PRESIDENT
---------------------------Le bon sens c'est CAM-------------------------->


##

Subject: Re: renderman... pd??
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 22:50:46 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    I was asked if Renderman is pd, and no, I'm afraid it's quite
    hefty in price.  The Unix version costs a couple thousand, from
    what I've heard, which is nothing compared to what.. $50,000
    for Wavefront,  but too expensive for the curious hobbyist.
-------------
Best thing to do is find a university that has a copy on thier machines
and get a CS degree then take a Computer Graphics course...
That is the only way anyone here ever gets to use Renderman. I have
read a friends Renderman Guide and it looks pretty cool.. But there
is a program out (distributed with a book) called BOB that looks just
as good as Renderman.. I would just bypass Renderman because the alternatives
in public domain are cheaper and can sometimes produce better results.

The big strength that all ray tracing programs lack that renderman
has is that you can write your own SHADERS... Renderman doesn't
raytrace pictures, it renders them... I never really got it down how the
shaders work but there is shaders for windows, spotlights, spherical lights,
ambient light, etc. And each produces a light effect that mimics real
light... It is like a algorithms that paint in 3D with a specific style..

I heard Wavefront stuff is pretty cool, but you need to be rolling in
dough before you can begin to use it.. Lets jut not talk about those
high-end graphics systems... They tend to be not as well supported
because the user base is sooo small... That is te problem with specialized
high-end junk, whether it be a Rolls Royce or a SGI Worktstaion or a
Fairlight synthesizer, the user base tends to be less than something you
can afford...

However, we can talk about Rayshade (my favorite), POV or Radiance
since they are all free and do about the same thing ;-)
-------------

    Renderman also has a version for the Mac, and it uses the same
    command language, so you can kinda preview stuff on the Mac, then
    do your real work on a workstation.  I have no idea how much the
    Mac version costs.
--------------
There is a package for the Mac called Swivelman which is Renderman
and Swivel in one package... Last I looked it was 500 bucks..
The only problem is the MAC's are slower than Amiga's and therefore
would not be much use... I'm being sarcastic towards Pixar.
--------------

    That is a good point that was brought up, though... there's so much
    cool PD stuff that you can script for...  eh heck!  Get Rayshade
    and see what you can do with that!  Then, if you like scripting,
    spring for Renderman (and a Unix box to run it on)
--------------
How much does it cost??? We are getting those SGI's and one of the
main ideas is to get programmers into making software using the graphics
libraries. Does anyone know where the docs for POV and the source
code is located?? I want to get it compiled on our system so I can
use it to do my rendering... Rayshade is alright but it doesn't support
image maps the way I would like it to...
--------------
    Scott



##

Subject: Re: stuff
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 23:07:07 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    The neat thing is that you have total control over what's happening
    in the shader.  You don't just turn smoothing off and on, you can
    set which way each normal points (at least that is what I'm told -
    I haven't learned how to do that yet).  Trust me - Imagine can't
    touch this!  Wavefront makes Imagine's renderer look like a bunch
    of canned effects.

    Scott
------------------
Imagine is only a Polygon based rendering program... You should compare
it to Real 3D and Caligari..

Have you seen Rayshade??? It supports 3 kinds of Triangles:
The typical triangle with three points.. Phong-shaded triangles
with vertices and vertex normals, and Phong-shaded triangles with
with vertices, vertex normals and UV texturing specification..

Rayshade 4.0 has these kinds of primitives plus
Blob (metaballs), box, sphere, torus, polygons, heightfield,
plane (ground...), cylinder, cone and disc. The latest version has
support for spline based triangles (I think). I have the manual
here and it spans about 52 pages and supports lots of goodies..
I also have the manual for Vision-3D but with my tddd2ray converter,
using Vision-3D is almost pointless.. It would be great, if I owned a
mac... But now that I know how to make the transition, I hardly ever
use VIsion 3D (except to make nice boxy shapes and laser printouts..
It is not much use beyond that.

Thanks, Glenn Lewis...

/***********************************************************************
** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
***********************************************************************/


##

Subject: Re: Fred Fish
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 23:23:17 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    > read documents, view animations, play music, view pictures and decompress
    > files, relating to the context of the disk. Each Fred Fish disk can carry
    > 880K of programs so 850x880 Kilobytes is how much storage you need to carry
    > 850 disks of the distribution.

    Sorry but CAM disk are well organized, each number are theme classifed, a
    number can contain up to 5 disk full of compressed data, the collection
    reach 775 number, far more than 1000 disk, contain some theme like, DTP
    fonts, Objects 3d, Pictures, music modules, Vector clip art, Animations, who
    are praticly inexistant in Fish, also all data are tested and judged for
    quality. Fish disk is the well know PD collection, not the only one.

    Attention: this is just information, not a revision or publicity, i'm the
    CAM maker. :)
    --
    \***  CCC AAA M   M  CLUB AMIGA MONTREAL           ------- Internet -------
    ***   C   A A MM MM  3501 Cote Ste-Catherine #212 |   [e-mail]   |
    ***** C   AAA M M M  Montreal, Quebec H3T 1Z8      ------------------------
     ***  CCC A A M   M  [phone]                Jean Pepin -- PRESIDENT
    ---------------------------Le bon sens c'est CAM-------------------------->
-------------------------------
Soo what... can I get it on the Internet??? Well it might as well be
nonexistent...  Can I get it on CDROM??? I can gte Fred Fish disks
on CDROM.. You see, that is why Fred Fish is so popular...
I could probably start my own public domain collection... I do have over 600
floppy disks... A big burden to me that is why I am getting a CDROM drive.

I would be interested to see what you have but there is no way I would
pay for it... Unless it all came on a CDROM..
The Aminet archive has about 80-100 megs of modules at least... It now
comes on CDROM. AB20 had a lot of stuff.. It is on CDROM. If you wish
to make yours on a CDROM, contact Walnut Creek, I'm sure they would
be interested. Personally I have never heard of CAM.. heck I live more than
1000 miles away, how could I...

/***********************************************************************
** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
***********************************************************************/


##

Subject: Re: Grass
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 23:30:20 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    The script based Amiga rendering program Raydance can create a field of
    grass using a "cloning" technique. If you can get ahold of a copy of
    the old Avid magazine, Vol 3 , Issue 5, it has a picture on the cover
    of a patch of grass created with RayDance. Note that I have not owner
    (owner-->owned) or used RayDance, I'm just repeating the info given in
    the "About the Cover" box.
----------------
Raydance is the only program I know that is text-based and costs
money. Well Renderman is, but you can get a interface to minimize
the interaction with the black box part. Raydance does have some
pretty neat capabilities but I'm wondering if Raydance == Radiance...
It could be that Raydance is just a modified version of Radiance...
The reason why I would believe this is that Radiance (as I hear)
supports fractal trees and many things that raydance does...

Raydance is small...  I have used it before (demo version),
it is a pity you can't compile it on a faster workstation...
That is one of the advantages of any public domain ray-tracing program,
you can compile it anywhere...

/***********************************************************************
** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
***********************************************************************/


##

Subject: Re: MPEG converter
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 23:44:05 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    convert them to 256color and it looks like I have a PD PC program that
    encodes 256color GIFS into MPEG movies.  So I will use Imagemaster to
-------------
where did you get it??? I want a copy ;-)
I know of an encoder for Xwindows and UNIX, but it is a piece of kaka...
-------------
    write out the ANIM-5 along with 400 GIF images so I can load them
    into this PC MPEG encoder.... Should only take about a week 8^)
-------------
No problem... We have PC's laying all around the school... All I have to do is
tie one up and put an "Out of Order" sign on the front...
-------------
    I could convert the IFF24's to targa then into this MPEG encoder but
-------------
It would probably be better to JPEG them then convert them to targa
from JPEG or something like that... I know how to do both GIF and TARGA
from JPEG (JPEG V3.0 will do it...)...

Is the C source code included with the program.. if so, I would
get it ported to UNIX.
-------------
    that would mean moving some serious amounts of data between my 4000
    and the PC.  Probably not worth the extra time it would take.
-------------
Here is what you do... You make an Arexx script to convert a list of
IFF24 images to JPEG with a wuality of 80... With 320x200 images you
should get about 12K per frame.. Take the entire animation
stuff it into 4 disks (that is how much it took to stuff my Roller
Coaster animation.. Then take it to the PC, use JPEG 3.0 to convert
all the images to targa or gif format... then render the animation
on the PC...

Arexx scripts are about as easy (but much more limited in
complexity than C) to make as C programs but you might have to kludge
them... I kludged a Arexx program to convert my special JPEG
format files to something REND24 will accept.


##

Subject: RE: MPEG converter
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 00:29:44 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    > hundreds of JPEG'd frames.

    So are you saying that you render a load of pictures convert them to JPEG
    Then put them into an ANIM5 file ? If so can a normal ANIM5 player play
    the JPEGed anim back, and what sort of frame rate do you get ?
------------------
No... I use Rend24 to convert the JPEG'd frames to ANIM5... I use
Rayshade 4.0 to render these ultra large RLE (32-bit graphics format)
images, and convert the images each to JPEG format, then I stuff the
frames on several disks, take it home, pull out Rend24 and have it
convert the JPEG'd frames to HAM format and splice the frames
together to make a ANim5 format animation. Actually I have
C programs to do most of the work for me.. I haveone program
called Rayfly that takes two files with a cammera and target path
and provide it with a file containing the environment and all the
objects in that environment... What Rayfly does is it reads both of the path
files to determine the cammera positions and such in the 3D universe
and rayfly writes these coordinates in a form that rayshade can take them,
then I #include the cammera positionsinto the file that I will
render... Then I JPEG the frames when they are finished and delete the
original frames.. This is all automated in a rayfly using just a combination
of file handling and system() calls.

Here is my program:

#define DEBUG 0
#define AnimationName argv[1]
#define CammeraPathName argv[2]
#define LookPathName argv[3]
#define FrameBase argv[4]
#define FrameIncrement argv[5]
#define Tween 10.0
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <string.h>

/*
** This program makes animations using Rayshade on a standard
**    Unix system equiped with MIPS C.
*/

main(int argc, char *argv[]) /* Get arguements from command line */
{
    /*
    ** Frame number and Count <== 0
    */
    int frame = 0, count = 0;
    int increment = 0;
    float camaxis1[3], camaxis2[3];
    float lokaxis1[3], lokaxis2[3];
    float Cincment[3], Lincment[3], tweens;
    FILE *cfptr, *lfptr, *wfptr;
    char tempstring[256];

    if (argc < 6)
       {
      printf("The syntax is \"%s <animation.ray> %s %s",argv[0],
                "<cammera_path.geo> <lookpoint_path.geo> \n",
                "<framebase> <increment> \"\n ");
        }
    else
        {
        increment = atoi(FrameIncrement);

        /* can we read the Cammera and LookPoint files??? */
        if ((cfptr = fopen (CammeraPathName,"r")) == NULL)
            printf("%s could not be opened. \n",CammeraPathName);
        else
        if ((lfptr = fopen (LookPathName,"r")) == NULL)
            {
            fclose(cfptr);
            printf("%s could not be opened. \n",LookPathName);
            }
        else
            {

            /*
            ** Take off header of the cammera read-in file
            */
            fscanf(cfptr, "%f%f%f", &camaxis1[0],&camaxis1[1],&camaxis1[2]);
            /*
            ** Get the real Cammera Start and End coordiantes
            */
            fscanf(cfptr, "%f%f%f", &camaxis1[0],&camaxis1[1],&camaxis1[2]);
            fscanf(cfptr, "%f%f%f", &camaxis2[0],&camaxis2[1],&camaxis2[2]);

            /*
            ** Take off header of the lookpoint (target) read-in file
            */
            fscanf(lfptr, "%f%f%f", &lokaxis1[0],&lokaxis1[1],&lokaxis1[2]);
            /*
            ** Get the real Lookpoint Start and End coordiantes
            */
            fscanf(lfptr, "%f%f%f", &lokaxis1[0],&lokaxis1[1],&lokaxis1[2]);
            fscanf(lfptr, "%f%f%f", &lokaxis2[0],&lokaxis2[1],&lokaxis2[2]);

            while (!feof(cfptr) && !feof(lfptr))
                {
                Cincment[0] = (float) ((camaxis2[0] - camaxis1[0])/Tween);
                Cincment[1] = (float) ((camaxis2[1] - camaxis1[1])/Tween);
                Cincment[2] = (float) ((camaxis2[2] - camaxis1[2])/Tween);
                Lincment[0] = (float) ((lokaxis2[0] - lokaxis1[0])/Tween);
                Lincment[1] = (float) ((lokaxis2[1] - lokaxis1[1])/Tween);
                Lincment[2] = (float) ((lokaxis2[2] - lokaxis1[2])/Tween);

                for (tweens = 1 ; tweens <= Tween ; tweens++)
                    {
                      if ((wfptr = fopen ("cammera.ray","w")) == NULL)
                       printf("File could not be created \n");
                    else
                        {
                        if (DEBUG)
                            {
                            if ((camaxis1[0] == lokaxis1[0]) &&
                                 (camaxis1[1] == lokaxis1[1]))
                                {
                                printf ("eyep %f %f %f \n",
                                    camaxis1[0],camaxis1[1],camaxis1[2]);
                                printf ( "lookp %f %f %f \n",
                                    lokaxis1[0]+.02,lokaxis1[1],lokaxis1[2]);
                                }
                            else
                                {
                                printf ("eyep %f %f %f \n",
                                    camaxis1[0],camaxis1[1],camaxis1[2]);
                                printf ( "lookp %f %f %f \n",
                                    lokaxis1[0],lokaxis1[1],lokaxis1[2]);
                                }

                            }
                        if ((camaxis1[0] == lokaxis1[0]) &&
                             (camaxis1[1] == lokaxis1[1]))
                            {
                            fprintf (wfptr, "eyep %f %f %f \n",
                                camaxis1[0],camaxis1[1],camaxis1[2]);
                            fprintf (wfptr, "lookp %f %f %f \n",
                                lokaxis1[0]+.02,lokaxis1[1],lokaxis1[2]);
                            fclose  (wfptr);
                            }
                        else
                            {
                            fprintf (wfptr, "eyep %f %f %f \n",
                                camaxis1[0],camaxis1[1],camaxis1[2]);
                            fprintf (wfptr, "lookp %f %f %f \n",
                                lokaxis1[0],lokaxis1[1],lokaxis1[2]);
                            fclose  (wfptr);
                            }

                        count++;
                        if ((count % increment)==0)
                           {
                            frame++;

                            if (DEBUG)
                                {
                                printf("rayshade -V stuff.results -p %s > %s%d.rle \n",
                                    AnimationName,FrameBase,frame);
                                printf("cjpeg -Q80 %s%d.rle > %s%d.jpg ; rm %s%d.rle \n",
                                    FrameBase,frame,FrameBase,frame,FrameBase,frame);
                                }
                            else
                                {

/* THIS IS WHERE MY PROGRAM TELLS RAYSHADE TO RENDER A FRAME
**    AND JPEG IT.
*/
                            sprintf(tempstring,
                                "rayshade -V stuff.results -p %s > %s%d.rle",
                                AnimationName,FrameBase,frame);
                            system(tempstring);

                            sprintf(tempstring,
                                "cjpeg -Q80 %s%d.rle > %s%d.jpg ; rm %s%d.rle",
                                FrameBase,frame,FrameBase,frame,FrameBase,frame);
                            system(tempstring);
                                }

                            } /* Rayshade */
                        } /* Wfptr */

                        camaxis1[0] += Cincment[0];
                        camaxis1[1] += Cincment[1];
                        camaxis1[2] += Cincment[2];
                        lokaxis1[0] += Lincment[0];
                        lokaxis1[1] += Lincment[1];
                        lokaxis1[2] += Lincment[2];
                    }    /* FOR LOOP */

                camaxis1[0] = camaxis2[0];
                camaxis1[1] = camaxis2[1];
                camaxis1[2] = camaxis2[2];
                lokaxis1[0] = lokaxis2[0];
                lokaxis1[1] = lokaxis2[1];
                lokaxis1[2] = lokaxis2[2];

                fscanf(cfptr, "%f%f%f",
                    &camaxis2[0],&camaxis2[1],&camaxis2[2]);
                fscanf(lfptr, "%f%f%f",
                    &lokaxis2[0],&lokaxis2[1],&lokaxis2[2]);
                } /* While More To read Loop */
                fclose(cfptr);
                fclose(lfptr);
            } /* If can open Cammera and Look files */
        }  /* Correct number of arguements IF scope */
} /* End of Program */

-----------------
I also have a program that converts output that this program
creates (as JPEG files) and will try to make tar files containing
approximately as much data to stuff a disk of a specific
number of kilobytes... I really kludged that one too..

It took the system 3 days to ray-trace my roller coaster, but
it came out to be 390 frames... Not one instruction cycle was
wasted on my Amiga rendering my animations... I use a combination
of the AMiga, C code, a VAX 5000, JPEG, system() calls, rayshade
and rend24... It seems to be a bit much for rendering animations..
I agree, but there are some things you can do with a public domain
renderer that are near impossible to do in Imagine... One thing
is remap points according to equations created in C, and complex
animation movements... For instance, I could create a C program that
would simulate gravity and would let you perform complex situations
where the feild of view and the density of fog, etc., changes
with the animation.. Imagine is limited, if you are a programmer..
If you are a artist you could probably care less, but those who
can program can figure out ways to do things that would otherwise be
impossible with a limited modeling/rendering program.

I think you get the idea...
-----------------
    Is this a frequently used method?
    Has anyone got any examples?
------------------
I will upload a copy of my rollercoaster niamtion to Wuarchive as soon as
it comes back on-line... I will also try to find other places that
will accept my uploads. Anyone have any suggestions???


##

Subject: Re: Wavefront v. Imagine
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 00:51:23 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    > Trust me - Imagine can't
    > touch this!  Wavefront makes Imagine's renderer look like a bunch
    > of canned effects.

        Well, jeez, what do you expect?!  Imagine costs $200, and
    what does Wavefront cost?  $8000?  $10000?  Wavefront makes
    all the consumer grade renderers look weak, I'm sure.
--------
Imagine can't touch some PD rendering programs... True,
comparing Wavefront and Imagine is like comparing Amiga to a Cray...
It is senseless...


##

Subject: Re: Retina and Imagine problem
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 00:48:54 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    tri-views.  Before the machine crashes I noticed that the screen wasn't
    being refreshed properly (dragging an object left pixel trails of the
    object).  Have any of you Retina/Imagine users experienced this?

    mark
----------------
I have experienced this without a Retina on my Amiga 3000.. I don't know
what causes it...


##

Subject: Re:  Grass
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 00:45:56 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    >  You load only the primitives of one object, then the ray-tracer
    >  (I suppose) treats duplicates as one in the same, just instantiated and
    >  morphed elsewhere.. There was a animation I saw where some instantiated
    >  several manequins on unicycles to infinity... Don't tell me it
    >  is crazy...

        Let's be clear here.  For each replicated object you need to store at
    least postion/scale/and orientation triplets.  Extras could include also
    storing a world-space bounding volume and any surface attributes that change
    from copy to copy.  When the renderer figures out that it needs to do a
    rigorous intersection test with a replicated object, it will make
    the appropriate coordinate transforms to object space and use the results for
    the scanline or ray interestion test.  Only one copy of the actual points is
    needed.
-------------
Ya... That's how it is done... Our system hardley ever uses up any ram...
The great thing about Unix is it has Virtual Memory support...
However, the 1280x1024 image of an 80 soldier army that I made
took up (I think) only 5 megs of memory, MAX, to render under rayshade..
-------------
        In the case of a manequins, this will save lots of RAM since the
    information for each replicated object will use *much* less space than complete
    object descriptions.  But in the case of grass, where the blade can be made up
    of as little as 3 points, the savings will be less spectacular (the actual
    magnitude depends on the implementation of the object description data
    structures).  You *still* have to store *something* about each individual
    blade.  Use thousands of blades, and even replication can eat up a fair amount
    of RAM. (if anything, it lets you do a heck of a lot more with your scene
    before you run out of RAM).
------------
In UNIX you don't.. especially on a 300 meg hard drive with only 80 megs
left... If you want proof, I will make you a picture with several thousand
or ten thousand blades of grass... each with 100 polygons... I will try it
at least... and I will make a program to randomly place the blades of
grass.. Then I will probably do a fly-through of the scenery... How
about that??? All those who would like to see me do that, say
yay!
-----------
        Still, RAM isn't the only issue here.  You still have to render those
    thousands of grass blades.  They'll be pretty close together, so the renderer
    will end up spending a fair amount of time doing intersection or Z-buffer
    testing, and sorting.  Have fun if it does antialiasing.
-----------
It does... as I said, I did a picture containing 80 soldiers which
each took about 10,000 polygons, and I instantiated them in several places..
My rendering is on wuarchive under "army.jpg" I believe...
-----------
        As was mentioned, fractals and particle systems will also to the job
    for grass.  Fractals typically require a fair amount of RAM and CPU, and
    particle systems require memory to track each particle (the amount depends on
    the complexity of your particle simulation).  The results, however, can be
    *very* satisfying.
------------
Oh, I know.. but it is hardly possible for me to use particle systems
since none of the public domain programs support them.. It is a moot
dicussion...
------------
        In short, there's no free lunch.  Any method of rendering complex
    natural objects will require a fair amount of RAM, processing time, or both.
    The result you get pretty much depends on your deadlines and how much
    memory you have available.  And the tools you have available, both in your head
    and on your hard disk...
----------
I have them.... The SGI's we are getting will come with 2
1.2 gig hard drives, and you can bet that at 10:00 PM at night I will have
exclusive access to all four of the indigos and the main SGI workstation..
Talk about heaven!!!! The SU has been kidding me that they will put a
quarter mechanism on it... I said "just as long as I can play
with the flight simulator on the 150 Mips server... ;-)
-----------
        Cheers,
        Charles
-----------
Later
/***********************************************************************
** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
***********************************************************************/


##

Subject: Re: T3DDD and Icoons question...
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 01:36:01 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

    Are either of these available for the PC platform, or do either come
    with source code to compile on the PC platform?

    Thanks,
    Mark
---------------------
Ask Glenn Lewis, he made T3D library that contains programs
like TDDD2RAY and TDDD2PS (yes Postscript... and it works!!!).
I think at one time he had it in full source code distribution form.

Well, Glenn How About it??!!!

Icoons is a GNU project, I think, the source code is available,
I'm sure...


##

Subject: Re: MPEG converter
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 09:07:44 EST
From: Adam Benjamin <[e-mail]>

Regarding the MPEG encoder Kholland wrote:

>where did you get it??? I want a copy ;-) I know of an encoder for
>Xwindows and UNIX, but it is a piece of kaka...

This may be a port of that same program, I haven't tried it yet.  The
program I am refering to is PVRGMPG.zip .  It just came across
comp.graphics.animation  and alt.binaries.multimedia The complete
source code is at havefun.stanford.edu   (so I have read)
I will repeat for anyone who may have just tuned in, this is a PC
program, not an Amiga program.

The person who did the conversion is
[e-mail] (whew glad my address isn't that
long!) He was attempting to get the program up on SIMTEL also.

I would love to see this program ported to the amiga.  Go for it KH!


##

Subject: Swivel
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 09:31:13 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Dave Wickard)

>From [e-mail] Thu Jun 17 07:17:00 1993
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 07:20:38 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Thomas E. Smith)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Swivel


Scott was saying something about Swivel on the Mac. I was going to try and write
an object converter between Imagine and Swivel. Does anyone know the Swivel
object format?

                                                   Tom


##

Subject: looking for docs on file structure of cycle animations and ANID chunk
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 10:04:36 -0500
From: Jonathan Sivier  <[e-mail]>

   I think my subject line covers it.  I'm working with some imagine files
and am wordering if anyone can point me to documentation of the file structure
of the cycle object animation and the ANID chunk of the file.

   Thanks for your assistance.

Jonathan Sivier
[e-mail]


##

Subject: Re: renderman... pd??
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 11:52:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: Cliff Lee <[e-mail]>

> But there
> is a program out (distributed with a book) called BOB that looks just
> as good as Renderman..

FYI,
The book is by Stephen Coy who is the author of VIVID.  BOB is a version
of VIVID.  Both shareware raytracers, and worth looking at.

Cliff


##

Subject: Imagine, Amiga ragging
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 08:08:05 PDT
From: [e-mail]

I don't know, and much less care who this is from, and the message seems
to have been convoluted but here goes.
>From a recent thread:

>>Now where the f*ck did I say that AMiga software was sh*t...
>>I said AMiga users don't complain enough to push the programmers and
>>companies..  Like, CBM just expects thier users to kiss thier beautiful
>>butts everytime they release a model, just like mac users do with Apple.
>>If the users compalin about the computers, CBM would work harder to
>>impress the users.. They don't have a chance in the world to enter the PC
>>market successfully, they now know that the Amiga is where it is at...
>>They are not going to abandon the Amiga platform... I think that
>>is what most Amiga users are afraid of, therefore they kiss *ss...

+  Well I've had my Amiga since the 1000 days, moved to the 2000, now have
+ a 4000. I don't feel I've been kissing anything, but am really happy CBM
+has maintained an upward path, and with the AGA chipset a grand one at that.
+All with a minimum of software incompatability. As far as CBM and Mac
+releasing new models, most CBM has kept the product line as lean as possible
+and still managed to offer a product that is widespread amoung users. Most
+hings that run on the 1200(exclude games) will run on the 4000. You don't see
+this on the other platforms. CBM deserves credit for a job well done on the
+4000, and AmigaDos.I am pleased with the software I have  on the Amiga, and
+though I do see room for improvement I realize a small compaanies have limited
+resources as opposed to the very large firms supporting other platforms.

>I don't... I like what I see and I will talk about it, but I don't feel
>inclined to admire CBM or Impulse, or anybody... If it is a good
>product, it is a good product... They could sell Imagine for
>20 bucks and it wouldn't matter... disks are easier to mass produce
>than any material good in the entire world and yet it costs an
>arm and a leg for programs that come on them...

 +I have seen some really admirable stuff done with Imagine, and for it's
 +price I can't complain. I get many hours of enjoyment out of Imagine
 +and long ago passed the point of not getting my monies worth. To relate
 +the value, or cost of a program to the medium it comes on is not the
 +sign of a clever person at best.

As programs get better, the old revisions lower in price much faster
than hardware... Probably because some users like myself have
figured it out that programs are overpriced... Less work, more
money... that's the idea... sell it for what the people will bare...

+ It seems that you need a course in business 101 at least. As a
+program matures and you recoup your investment you find yourself
+able to contain cost so to speak much easier. This is also aided by
+the revenue generated by upgrade fees. Some programs that were grossly
+overpriced, as you indicated in the following paragraph had to reduce
+to be competive with the other offerings.

Amiga users can't afford costly programs, that is why Caligari costs
200 bucks, Imagine costs 200 bucks and Dpaint costs less than 100
dollars.. On the Mac's there are more companies that got more dough,
and they can afford to pay high prices.... Look on any low-end
platform and you will see that this is true...

+Speak for yourself ! I'm a adult that has the ability to manage to
+budget for my software. I see the prices rising as the quality, and power
+of software improves. However I have the advantage of owning most of the
+better stuff since it's early days and upgrade as often as I can. With
+AGA I'll have to space the upgrades out but will eventually get them all.
+I realize the need to support the Amiga Platform and am +willing to sacrifice
+a little to do so, others seem only interested in a free ride. I buy from my
+local dealer whenever reasonable to support him. $10.00 more or less is a small
+price to pay to help him survive. I am not stupid. I know I can save money
+buying elsewhere, but The Amiga is in an awkward posistion. Because the user
+base is amaller it makes the support extended by this user base much more
+important.
---------
    And they send free(thats right, I said FREE(as well they should))
upgrades when     they make mistakes. I've seen 3D packages on the MAC(can't
recall which one)
----------
+Virtual Realities, and ASDG both offer excellent support of their programs
+as an example.
------
There are 50 million PC users and 10 million Mac users... the Companies
can get away with it there.. Now when teh Amiga user base expands
to 10 million, expect to find companies charging for upgrades...
----------
+Disagree here. Bug fixes no, actual product enhancements I see the Amiga
+developers having the right and ability to charge for upgrades. It allows
+them to generate development funds, and the user to enjoy the fruits of
+these development efforts at an incremental cost. The need for upgrade
+charges is even more critical in the Amiga Market.


with half the features that cost twice as much as Imagine(keeping with the topic
of the list).  So, don't get me wrong...ya gotta complain if it don't work. But
----------
MS makes most of thier money off upgrades...

It is all a matter of user base and ethics... It is one reason
I don't own a PC... Then again I would rather have an Amiga developer
tha makes an effort to make bug-free, defect free, understandable software
(like most MAC software) rather than just make revisions when the users
complain... That is about how it goes on the Amiga...
Either they look for errors deliberately, or they wait for the errors
to come knocking at their door... Impulse should clear up thier
errors before they upgrade thier software... It will make it easier
on both them and the users, however they seem to be doing it the
more screwy disorganized way... Hunt and hack...

+Well I do wish it could be this way also, but in reality bugs are always
+ a possability. There are so many varables in a software program, and
+especially in a program like Imagine that it would be near impossible
*to eliminate them all and still ship in a reasonable amount of time. I
+have recieved free disks from Impulse(YES IMPULSE) in the past to fix
+critical problems. Regard most Mac software, Yes it seems to have inherent
+ better stability, that is unless you count the problems with stuff and
+system 7. This stability is also easier to obtain when you don't concern
+yourself with backward compatability.

I believe in smart coding styles like programs that are flexible,
modular, top-down design bottom-up implemented, and can "sense"
the environment before they continue execution... Imagine doesn't
seem to do this... Otherwise it would be capable of running
on a PC or whatever,

+ Well I think this is a little out of line. Developing for the PC
+with it's many inherent problems has nothing to do with the above.
+Regardless of how you develop your code, if your new to the PC
+(piece C***) enviornment your going to have problems. It's not
+easy going from a OS like Amigados, and a AUTOCONFIG(tm) system
+like the Amiga to the hodgepodge world of messy dos. This is an
+even harder task if your trying to get the same functions you have
+on the Amiga.

 and you would not need to replace register values in
the program's binaries to make it support resolutions like 1280x1024...
The programmer could have at least had Imagine determine how much memory
is available for graphics, what chipset is being used, what the current
screen resolution is, how many colors are possible, etc. and change the
global variables to reflect the environment... But no... The programmer
has to hard-code the magic numbers in that choose only one of two resolutions
(hires and hires-lace).. It is what we call "Poor Software Design".
I bet the programmer(s??) of Imagine doesn't even have a Masters,
Probably not even a bachelors... It is so obvious..

+Opps Again. I admit that support for the different resolutions would be nice.
+I also realize that these 1280x1024 requirements wern't even a dream until
+a short time ago. Imagine Supports all the standard(and DCTV) formats that
+were available during it's design cycle. I have a 4000 but still only a 1084s
+for a monitor. The large majority of Imagine users will not have a problem
+with this restriction for quite a while.(I don't consider us netters the
+average user) In time as things settle down and support for 3.0 grows these
+problems should go away.(At least I think so). To throw darts at this time
+seems a little rash, to slam the programmers especially in regards to education
+is outright rude(please forward me a beta copy of your 3D modeler). I'd much
+rather Impulse spend time on the features list than waste it on screen
+resolutions at this time.

 This thread has become disjointed so I simply makked my thoughts with
a "+" to seperate them. We should also remember that Impulse have offerd
Imagine PC to us for $100.00 . At that price I can put in on my desk at work
and then I can see if it runs or not:-)
                        bill
/------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill leimberger. NASHUA N.H.
I am Not an Amiga dealer, or developer. I am simply An
Amiga user that appreciats The Amiga and the things it allows me to do.
These ramblings are my own and do not reflect on my employer, or anyone
else for that matter*/


##

Subject: Re: Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 11:20:12 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Setzer)

> From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

> Let me clairify my GRRRR.  It wasn't the complaining that I was complaining
> about.  It was your comment on overpriced software.  Have you taken a look
> a the price of MAC software and to a lesser extent, PCsw?  Sure there are really
> nice packages out there, high end stuff, that you pay for and is probably worth
> it.  But they got crap that you pay for too.  Here on the Amiga we have programs
> like Vista and Scenery Animator for under $100!!!  To me, that is amazing!!!
> ---------

> Now where the f*ck did I say that AMiga software was sh*t...

I didn't say you said that.  Look again, take the time to read it this
time through.   You said, and I quote:
"I really believe that about 50% of the Amiga software that exists, is
overpriced for the ammount of obvious effort that is put into it. "
^^^^^^^^^^
Thats a cut and paste boys and girls.

> If the users compalin about the computers, CBM would work harder to
> impress the users..

  Hasn't worked yet.  If you look on the net, all users do is piss and moan.
Sure Impulse as a company sucks, their customer relations blow, their release
dates are off target and probably too early by the amount of bugs PC users
have seen.  But for $200+ it is still a great deal.  Crappy manual, bugs and
all. (Did you catch that, I was complaining and praising all at once.
Pretty cool, huh?)


> market successfully, they now know that the Amiga is where it is at...
> They are not going to abandon the Amiga platform... I think that
> is what most Amiga users are afraid of, therefore they kiss *ss...

Are you making this crap up as you go along?  What *I* worry about is
C= going down the tubes.  If the big C determines that it *needs* to abandon
the Amiga, it will.  Take a look at the stock.  ~3.  That ain't good.


>They could sell Imagine for 20 bucks and it wouldn't matter...

What the hell does that mean?


>disks are easier to mass produce than any material good in the entire
> world

  Even those cute little Troll dolls?

>  and yet it costs an arm and a leg for programs that come on them...
>
   No sh*t, we keypunches gotta make a living somehow.

> As programs get better, the old revisions lower in price much faster
> than hardware... Probably because some users like myself have
> figured it out that programs are overpriced... Less work, more
> money... that's the idea... sell it for what the people will bare...

Thats from Econ 101 you took last semester I assume?

> Amiga users can't afford costly programs, that is why Caligari costs
> 200 bucks,

And why Caligari Broadcast cost out the butt.

> It is all a matter of user base and ethics... It is one reason
> I don't own a PC...

Huh?  What ethics?  Whats the reason?  I don't get it.



> I believe in smart coding styles like programs that are flexible,
> modular, top-down design bottom-up implemented, and can "sense"
> the environment before they continue execution...

Very good, CS201 right?

> Imagine doesn't
> seem to do this...

 Sense the environment..yeah, probably not from the bugs we've been hearing
about.  But those smart coding styles...that would be tough to say, with out
looking at their code.

> the program's binaries to make it support resolutions like 1280x1024...
> The programmer could have at least had Imagine determine how much memory
> is available for graphics, what chipset is being used, what the current
> screen resolution is, how many colors are possible, etc. and change the
> global variables to reflect the environment... But no... The programmer
> has to hard-code the magic numbers in that choose only one of two resolutions
> (hires and hires-lace).. It is what we call "Poor Software Design".

I agree with most of that last paragraph(imagine that), until the last point.
That is not what I call poor design.  Just choice.  Bad design is like you said
above, not modular, not top down, lots of gotos. Its low on my wish list
anyway.

> I bet the programmer(s??) of Imagine doesn't even have a Masters,
> Probably not even a bachelors... It is so obvious..

  Poor guy, can't even defend himself...Hell if he doens't have a bachelors,
then all the more credit to him/her.  BTW, why is it obvious?  I must have
missed something.

>
> /***********************************************************************
> ** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
> ** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
> ** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
> ***********************************************************************/
>
What exactly does a Computer AIDE do anyway?  Other than post to the net all
day?

BTW, how did you come to know so much?  Do you have a BS?  MS?  PHD?  How
old are you?   Just curious.  I have a BS in CS working on my MS in CE.  Work
for Motorola as Software Engineer where we do "good" Software design(top down
and all that other fun stuff). What is chicoma.lanl.gov? Is that a part of
the University?


Tom Setzer
[e-mail]

"And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery
intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" - Calvin


##

Subject: Re: Buggy Imagine Pc Buggy
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 12:14:04 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Devon Miller)

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 01:32:47 -0600
From: [e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan)

|Now where the f*ck did I say that AMiga software was sh*t...
|I said AMiga users don't complain enough to push the programmers and
|companies..  Like, CBM just expects thier users to kiss thier beautiful
|butts everytime they release a model, just like mac users do with Apple.
|If the users compalin about the computers, CBM would work harder to
|impress the users.. They don't have a chance in the world to enter the PC
|market successfully, they now know that the Amiga is where it is at...
|They are not going to abandon the Amiga platform... I think that
|is what most Amiga users are afraid of, therefore they kiss *ss...

|                    Then again I would rather have an Amiga developer
|tha makes an effort to make bug-free, defect free, understandable software
|(like most MAC software) rather than just make revisions when the users
|complain... That is about how it goes on the Amiga...
|Either they look for errors deliberately, or they wait for the errors
|to come knocking at their door... Impulse should clear up thier
|errors before they upgrade thier software... It will make it easier
|on both them and the users, however they seem to be doing it the
|more screwy disorganized way... Hunt and hack...

|I believe in smart coding styles like programs that are flexible,
|modular, top-down design bottom-up implemented, and can "sense"
|the environment before they continue execution... Imagine doesn't
|seem to do this... Otherwise it would be capable of running
|on a PC or whatever, and you would not need to replace register values in
|the program's binaries to make it support resolutions like 1280x1024...
|The programmer could have at least had Imagine determine how much memory
|is available for graphics, what chipset is being used, what the current
|screen resolution is, how many colors are possible, etc. and change the
|global variables to reflect the environment... But no... The programmer
|has to hard-code the magic numbers in that choose only one of two resolutions
|(hires and hires-lace).. It is what we call "Poor Software Design".
|I bet the programmer(s??) of Imagine doesn't even have a Masters,
|Probably not even a bachelors... It is so obvious..

I promised myself I would stay out of this, but I'd like to try and head
off an Amiga v. PC bashfest like comp.graphics has been seeing...

First off, regarding CBM trying harder...

Kiernan said, "If the users compalin about the computers, CBM would work
harder to impress the users."

CBM is a rather unusual company.  The CEO & president, Mehdi Ali, calls all
of the shots.  All of them.  His decisions reflect where he thinks he can
make money next *quarter*.  Not next year.  Not the next 5 years.  The next
3 months.  What the engineers design and what the company releases often have
little in common.  The first spec. for the AA machine (1200 & 4000) called for
up to 8M of graphics memory and an on-board DSP with CODECs for audio and
telephone.  Look at what actually shipped.  The first design for what became
the 4000 called for a machine with an '030, SCSI and DSP on board, and in a
package that would retail for $995.  Instead out came the 4000 at ~$2800.

How do I know this?  I used to work there.  I was layed off in this year's
second downsizing in April.  As for CBM abandoning the Amiga, they may not
need to.)  They may abandon the business world first.  (For those that haven't
heard, CBM posted a first quarter loss of ~$177 million.  This prompted the 3rd
round of layoffs last Friday.  Companywide it amounted to ~65% staff reduction.)

As for buggy Amiga programs...

Have you written much SW for the Amiga?  How about the PC?  I've written for
both.   SW can be very portable between the two *IF* you plan to support that
from the outset.  SW that's written expressly for the PC is painful to port to
the Amiga, and vice versa.  On the Amiga, you query the display database for
the type of screen you want (resolution, number of colors, PAL/NTSC, etc) and
you are given a "magic number"  that you pass to the OS's display routines.
That's what you're seeing being mimiced in the PC.  I'm sure they used good
(or at least reasonable) development practices, but those were focused on the
Amiga environment.  Given the choice, I'd much rather port between the PC and
UNIX (either direction) than port between either of those and the Amiga.

Remember, the original Amiga team was building a game machine, not a micro-
computer.  They apparently saw nothing to be gained by modeling their OS
interface after anyone else.  The engineers at CBM have tried to improve
things, but that is difficult without throwing a lot of stuff out and starting
over.  The changes they have made have been for the better, but SW written
for one version of the interface will either not run or not run correctly on
a different version.  Also, compatability testing requires that you keep
some machines running with older (probably buggier) OS versions.  Which
translates to machines you can't use for development, only test.

I'm trying not to defend or accuse anyone here, I'm just trying to present
the facts of the situation.  Anything that was written expressly for one
environment is going to take time to get working correctly in another.  If
you want to be able to run on both Amiga & PC you need to design that in
early on.  The game "Lemmings 2" is one example that comes to mind of a
program designed for either environment.

Devon
--
Devon Miller   ______    "If a person offend you, and you are in doubt as to
               \    /    whether it was intentional or not, do not resort to
                \  /     extreme measures; simply watch your chance and hit
[e-mail]    \/      him with a brick."  -- Twain



##

Subject: Re: New subscriber w/ questions
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 11:19:01 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Jeffrey Walkup)


>     My second question is haw can I get Imagine to make
> an anim that can be loaded into DPaint 4.  If I make a
> project in ANIM format and load the anim into DPaint, the
> frames degrade in successive frames until the anim looks
> like colored TV static.

You need to lock the palette to that of the first frame; DPaint
doesn't handle ANIMs with separate palettes for each frame, as
Imagine will generate by default.  When you start rendering the
ANIM, Imagine *should* ask you "Lock the palette?".  Say 'yes'.
(Reason I say *should* is that, I swear, sometimes it doesn't ask.
Try messing with the Viewmode properties.)


> In a similar vein, if I play an
> anim using AmigaVision, it plays fine until the last few or
> the very last frame.  The frames then turn into static-like
> pictures.

Now this sounds like a loop-frames problem.  You probably either:
1) Don't have loop-frames, and AV is expecting them.  Or:
2) You do have loop-frames, but AV is NOT expecting them.
Either way, you'll get garbage when the animation reaches the end and
loops back to the beginning.
If there is an option in AV to deal with loop-frames, turn it on or off,
see what happens.  If there isn't such an option in AV, it is probably
expecting loop-frames on all animations, so you'll have to add them.

--
Jeff Walkup, Digital Animator / Videographer | Energy = Matter = Spacetime
 [e-mail] - San Francisco   |         ERLEICHDA!


##

Subject: Re: Fred Fish
Date: 17 Jun 1993 15:33:30 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Jean Pepin)

[e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan) writes:

>-------------------------------
>Soo what... can I get it on the Internet??? Well it might as well be
>nonexistent...  Can I get it on CDROM??? I can gte Fred Fish disks
>on CDROM.. You see, that is why Fred Fish is so popular...
>I could probably start my own public domain collection... I do have over 600
>floppy disks... A big burden to me that is why I am getting a CDROM drive.

No internet nor CDROM.

>I would be interested to see what you have but there is no way I would
>pay for it... Unless it all came on a CDROM..
>The Aminet archive has about 80-100 megs of modules at least... It now
>comes on CDROM. AB20 had a lot of stuff.. It is on CDROM. If you wish
>to make yours on a CDROM, contact Walnut Creek, I'm sure they would
>be interested. Personally I have never heard of CAM.. heck I live more than
>1000 miles away, how could I...

You can see CAM contain in French MAG "Amiga News / Amiga DP".

>/***********************************************************************
>** Kiernan Holland, [e-mail], [e-mail] **
>** (University Of New Mexico - Los Alamos Branch Computer AIDE)       **
>** "If it doesn't work, turn it off/on or ask me to watch."           **
>***********************************************************************/
--
\***  CCC AAA M   M  CLUB AMIGA MONTREAL           ------- Internet -------
***   C   A A MM MM  3501 Cote Ste-Catherine #212 |   [e-mail]   |
***** C   AAA M M M  Montreal, Quebec H3T 1Z8      ------------------------
 ***  CCC A A M   M  [phone]                Jean Pepin -- PRESIDENT
---------------------------Le bon sens c'est CAM-------------------------->


##

Subject: Wow! I'm a star
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 16:21:14 EST
From: Adam Benjamin <[e-mail]>

Ok, this is totally un-related, but how often does one make it to
national TV?
CNBC is showing some footage they shot here at ZDS on Sunday (June 20)
at 7:00am (EDT) on a show called American Spotlight.
They shot some footage of me running our SMT circuit board assembler
and if it doesn't get cut, you just might get a glimse of the back of
my head! (I'm the sandy brown haired guy)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program 8-)

Adam B.


##

Subject: Re: Grass
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 17:01:49 EDT
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

[e-mail] (AIDE Kiernan) writes:
> >  Ya, and I suppose you can write us the code to do it??
> >  I serriously doubt it.

Just because such things are FAR beyond your minimal comprehension or
capabilities doesn't mean that is true of everyone. I designed my first
computer vision system (HW & SW) when you were only halfway through grade
school.

> >  you really aren't using up memory like you would if you were actually
> >  copying objects.

Memory usage is only part of the problem. Rendering is a BIG issue. Particle
systems can accomplish these tasks many times faster and can easily take
advantage of "data amplification" techniques which minimizes the modeling
required by the animator.

> >  There was a animation I saw where some instantiated
> >  several manequins on unicycles to infinity.

Yes, it was done on an 800 MFLOP AT&T Pixel Machine. And as Charles Congdon
pointed out, this is a bit different from the case of grass.

Charles Congdon writes:
> particle systems require memory to track each particle (the amount depends on
> the complexity of your particle simulation).  The results, however, can be
> *very* satisfying.

An excellent example of this technique can be found in the '85 Siggraph
proceedings (pg. 313) where Bill Reeves details work done at Lucasfilm
to model trees, grass, and fire. The accompanying pics are quite nice
and one is a still from an animation of a tall grass field in which the
wind blows the blades about. Render time was on the order of a couple hours
using a VAX 11/750, a truly slow machine by todays standards.

If Kiernan thinks he can accomplish this with polygonally modeled grass
blades, I challenge him to do it. The image in Avid done with Raydance
(no relation to Radiance) had only a couple square feet of grass which
cost over a million polygons and 25 hours of rendering. LightWave comes
closer to a viable solution because it supports 2D particles or lines.
I ran a test last night which filled about a 100 square meters with tall
grass (textured lines) and it took under 10 minutes. It was still a far
cry from a field.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: C code in postings
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 14:25:30 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Kodama)

hi,
can people either*not* post lengthy C code stuff here, or at least warn
us in the headings that you are doing so, so we can avoid having to read
them ?

thanks,
kevin
btw(since this is the IMAGINE list :-))
is the PC version of Imagine currently the same as the amiga 2.0 release,
or does it contain some goodies we can look forward to in 3.0 ? Some PC guys
I know are interested in using Imagine instead of 3d Studio, and need advice...


##

Subject: Re: Re: Buggy Pc Imagine
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 0:55:19 CEST
From: Santi Lo Monaco <[e-mail]>

(I do not use a mail-reader, so will not quote anybody)

Regarding what Mark asked about Impulse actually telling me something
about free upgrade to Imagine ver.3, naaahhh not really, they never even
admitted it did not work, somebody on the phone looked like offended when i
said:
(quote myself) "thought you had produced a serious port".
I was stating that they HAVE to upgrade for free the user of the current
PC
version, because it simply does not work, simple and easy fact!
When i started this thread, was a bit scared i was the only person in the
whole cyber-world who could not get imagine to work on the pc, then i
realized, assuming yhe list as a universe, actually ONE single person
(1-one-) has posted a message affirming he is happyly working with imagine.
I mean, if i buy a thing for xxx unit of money, it is reasonable i expect
to
obtain xxx unit of utility, (intro to economics), well i was not
complaining
about some non measurable aspects of the software in question, iwas saying
the thing is somehow broken, it ddoe not give me any utility because i
cannot
trust working for two hours on something that is going to dissappear
at the touch of the mouse or at the click of a control box or wathewer
action it goes out to lunch!
Come on be fair, it would simply be fair business practice giva us a
working version, wheter it'll be called 2, 2.1, 2.3,....3.87 i do not care.


About the marketing branch stemmed out the same thread, my point is:
I would love to have at my desk a Mac, a Next, an Amiga, (why not) one big
Silicon Graphics etc etc, bad luck  i started computing as a business
student and
my teacher requested all papers in WS4 format...so life goes, since then i
stuck to IBM world, and i don't know a thing how Impulse prices their
product but
i believe everything is worth precisely the amount of money somebody is
willing to shell out, this is another fact, so never mind the usual hype
around softwareand "supporting" somebody , that's plain bull. Never
intended to enjoy computing as a charity medium.
BTW the last simple fact: PoV is a great product, is in the pubblic domain
(ie
it is not shareware), Vivid is even better for Image quality and scripting
language maybe loses some point in range, Rayshade is precisely gorgeus and
there are some rel good modelers around to avoid the pain of scripting: for
PoV check
Moray (written by a german guy) which has got almost everything other
modelers
even commercial one do not. In Moray you will find:
4 ports views with camera following your work (not strolling around the
universelookind for girlfriend cameras)
Bezier Patches with as many control points as you want
Visual Texture editing
CSG, sweeps and a lot of features that make it great.
Download: mray.zip
from: ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de
dir: pub/dkbtrace/incoming/


Ciao
Santi Lo Monaco ([e-mail])

P.S.
I would gladly accept some job in our field of interest (graphics related
companies, video production and or marketing) but do not rush, my mailbox
will keep up
with just 300 messages each session.


##

Subject: Re: Grass / Siggraph
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 09:04 GMT0BST-1
From: Jacek Artymiak <[e-mail]>

In-Reply-To:  <[e-mail]>

>An excellent example of this technique can be found in the '85 Siggraph
>proceedings (pg. 313) where Bill Reeves details work done at Lucasfilm
>to model trees, grass, and fire. The accompanying pics are quite nice
>and one is a still from an animation of a tall grass field in which the
>wind blows the blades about. Render time was on the order of a couple hours
>using a VAX 11/750, a truly slow machine by todays standards.

Is there any way of getting hold of the Siggraph papers? I live in the UK and
can't attend the conference.

TIA,


Jacek


##

Subject: Any experience with DPS PAR ?
Date:     Fri, 18 Jun 1993 15:13:48 +0200
From: Hannes Heckner <[e-mail]>

Now that some time is gone by and DPS is availible I want to ask
you people out there if there are any experiences with this board.

Any comments appreciated
Thanks a lot
Hannes


##

Subject: Getting to business
Date:     Fri, 18 Jun 1993 15:25:19 +0200
From: Hannes Heckner <[e-mail]>

Hi folks,

now I am using Imagine for about 2 years now. I invested some money
in my computer graphic equipment and now I want some money to
come back to me :-) This means I want to make some money with the
spots I produce.

Now I want to know from you who are already producing spots for money

    to which kind of persons/companies do you sell your spots

    how much do you take (average)

    how long do you work on one spot

    has anyone produced cinema spots ?

    how much equipment do you use (computers / software)

    are you working in a group or alone

    do you use selfmade soundtracks

Now I know that these questions are very private !!!!!!
I understand completely that you can - if only - answer them more
general but it would be very important to me as I have some problems
in defining the right group of companies to which I can sell spots.
So I don't need names or exact numbers, I need general info about
how to get in touch with the right people.

So any info will be a great help to me

Hannes


##

Subject: Two Requests...
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 10:38:53 -0400
From: Mark Marino <[e-mail]>

Hey Guys,

  I have two requests to make:

  1) Can any of you guys with Icoons please let the rest of us know
where to find it on the Internet (if it exists on the net)?  I did an
archie search but it turned up nothing.

 -and-

  2) Can we hold back from erupting into any major flame wars?  I see
trouble brewing here since the last few days and I'm hoping we can
curtail it before we get into some major bandwidth squandering.  If you
feel you must let loose some stinging comments about somebody's post,
send it to the sender, not the list.

<off my soapbox>
Mark

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                                                             |
| Mark Marino              | [e-mail]           |  uunet!osf!omar         |
| Open Software Foundation | 11 Cambridge Center    |  Cambridge, MA 02142    |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|


##

Subject:  Floating Point Gurus
Date:  Fri, 18 Jun 1993 14:12:19 +0000
From: "Rob (R.D.) Hounsell" <[e-mail]>

Dudes && || Dudettes,

  I often experience a problem on my Amiga sometimes while rendering under
Imagine 2.0 that I figure is due to my home-made accellerator but will ask
anyway:

  Has anyone been experiencing guru mediations that indicate either a memory
error or co-processor illegal instruction? This happens often enough that I
cannot set up a sequence of frames to render before I go to bed and have any
confidence at all that it will be finished the next morning (i.e. it will have
crashed after several frames). It seems to happen by far most often when
running rendering in Imagine, although that could just be because it works the
system the hardest.

  As I said, I expect that there is a timing problem within my A1000 - LUCAS
accellerator - FRANCES memory expansion setup (PD Hardware), but you never
know. I've taken a logic analyzer as far as it will go; I've arranged access to
a 68020 in-circuit emulator, but due to wedding plans have been too busy to try
it.

Thx
Rob
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Rob Hounsell                          INTERNET:  [e-mail]            |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+


##

Subject: Re: Any experience with DPS PAR ?
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 10:06:46 EDT
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> Now that some time is gone by and DPS is availible I want to ask
> you people out there if there are any experiences with this board.

Mine hasn't arrived yet, but I did go check one out at a local dealer.
First off, I liked the interface; clean, professional, and pretty intuitive.
The output imagery was good and writing/compressing images to the device
was transparent and fast (a few seconds per frame). You wrote to it like
it was any drive in the system. As for compression, apparently it can be
controlled both during recording and playback. To control compression ratios,
it allows a quality factor from 0-23. Apparently when you are rendering,
you set it to 23 and it will choose the best value it can on playback to
maintain 30fps. You would only set it lower than 23 when doing real time video
capture with the TBC4. For playback, Q16 had very noticeable artifacts around
areas of high detail. Q23 looked very clean (not flawless) and Q18-Q20 looked
pretty good. I would say that it doesn't seem that this device could match
a BetaSP tape deck, but it does look pretty darn good. Further tests with a
high quality deck and realtime output are necessary to fully evaluate it.
Note that even though DPS states that the algorithm they are using is not
JPEG, it is enough like JPEG to exhibit similar style artifacts, ie. little
fuzzy squares around contrasty details.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%      `       '        Mark Thompson                 CONCURRENT COMPUTER  %
% --==* RADIANT *==--   [e-mail]        Principal Graphics   %
%      ' Image `        ...!uunet!masscomp!mark       Hardware Architect   %
%     Productions       [phone] [phone]   & General Nuisance   %
%                                                                          %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


##

Subject: Re: stuff
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1993 01:55:05 +1000 (EST)
From: Nikola Vukovljak <[e-mail]>

On Wed, 16 Jun 1993, Mr. Scott Krehbiel wrote:

> I realize in re-reading my earlier post that I wasn't at all clear
> in what I was saying.  I hate it when I do that!
>
> What I was wowed by was the amount of control that Wavefront gives
> you over rendering.  I'm still learning this stuff, so pardon me
> if I get my facts mixed up, but anyway... in Wave, each vertex

 <stuff deleted>
>
> The neat thing is that you have total control over what's happening
> in the shader.  You don't just turn smoothing off and on, you can
> set which way each normal points (at least that is what I'm told -
> I haven't learned how to do that yet).  Trust me - Imagine can't
> touch this!  Wavefront makes Imagine's renderer look like a bunch
> of canned effects.
>
> Scott

So what is your point here?
Unfortunately us mere mortals don't have the money to get Wavefront. In
fact if I had the money I'd rather get Alias and/or TDI.

Nik.

[e-mail]


##

Subject: Oh, where have all the pictures gone???
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 10:25:34 MDT
From: [e-mail] (Brian Ridout)

Hi all,

    I would like to know where the new ftp site is for uploading
and down loading imagine pictures.  I know hubcap is gone now and
that someone has picked up the slack.  I thought it was wuarchive.
However, I looked in systems/amiga/incoming/gfx and imagine, they
are empty.

Thanks for any help.  I would like to see the newest stuff coming
from this list.  As well as uploading some of my own.

Brian Ridout
[e-mail]